Scouts going mixed sex and the rise of toxic masculinity

[wobblychristmastree]

When scouts decided to go mixed sex for all sections a lot of boys who would have had a healthy boy only space and strong male role models then suddenly didn’t. And these boys are now young men and some of them a producing the manosphere podcasts and spreading their toxic masculinity crap. The timing is right.

AIBU to think boys still need healthy boy only spaces, and strong male role models? and scouts have let them down..

Yup.
This

It really is nonsensical.

The teens and young men who fall for the tripe these manosphere people peddle are not the young men who have spent years in Scouts.

I’ve seen lots of examples of toxic male behaviours over the last year that I previously haven’t experienced. Most of the men involved have been 40+. I definitely agree there has been a rise, but I don’t feel it’s to do with the scouts

I’m not sure Ive come across any examples of toxic masculinity from people involved in scouting who joined post 2007. Handful of old guard still around who may drift towards that territory but even they have generally seen the light over the years.

Yes, positive male role models are hugely important. You can have those in mixed sex environments. Yes, you maybe lose a handful of potential good make role model volunteers to the false allegation from teenage girls fear but I’d be surprised if that’s material compared to those you gain from the parents of girl members, and who only get involved because their child is involved.

You aren't wrong. The increase in toxic masculinity has been brewing for a long time but doesn't hinge on Scouts. I remember the first roots of the 'manosphere' taking shape and what it comes down to is ultimately a lack of hope and purpose for boys and men.

1 - only about 5% of the relevant age group go to scouts anyway, so it can't be that influential across a whole generation
2 - as pps have pointed out, it wasn't a choice of staying boys only vs allowing girls in, it was a choice of allowing girls in vs closing due to lack of numbers
3 - "The timing is right" - ah yes of course, the toxic masculinity of the last decade. What feminist utopia of times gone by are you comparing it to? The 1990s when rape in marriage was still legal? Early 1970s when women couldn't own their own property? Pre 1918 when they couldn't vote? I'm sure all the men who supported outlawing the first and protested against the second two were just lovely people....

You're talking absolute nonsense, and betraying your own ignorance.

@wobblychristmastree- the rise of toxic masculinity- when do you think that started? Because scouts went mixed sex in 1991. (And in 1991 they were close to closing due to lack of numbers - It Was only enforced that all troops had to be mixed sex in 2007, but by then, allowing girls into scouting for the previous 16 years had effectively saved it from closing down nationwide).

Obviously the answer is - the Boys Brigade. This still exists. It’s single sex, although some run the girls brigade alongside and share spaces/events. It’s not very popular though - the mixed sex scouting movement gets much more interest.

Were the Scouts a healthy boy-only space?

Even as long ago as the 1970s there were quite a number of Scoutmasters grooming and abusing the boys. I'm sure the adult behaviour predated the 1970s, it was just that that was when people started to acknowledge what was happening. (Ditto the Church and boys' schools.)

It would be lovely if there were healthy boy-only spaces, but sadly the predatory men put paid to that, every bloody time.

I don't think Scouts have ever released figures on the numbers of single sex and mixed sex troops. I was making an assumption based on the dramatic way membership figures and percentage of girls changed after the requirement to open all troops. And there isn't a single source for that either, that I'm aware of, you need to look up each year's membership numbers and the announcements on percentage of girls and chart them.

Why did the change to mixed sex make any difference to the male role models? Did all the male leaders leave? My DD’s scout group has a great male leader, the boys and girls all think he’s great.

Yes, this.

I know some amazing men who do exactly this, often related to sports, specifically supporting kids at risk of being drawn into gang culture by providing them with alternative spaces to feel safe and build pride in themselves.

My cub/scout group has all female leaders. Our beavers has a rota of parents to help at meetings because there isn’t a permanent leader and the parent volunteers are 90% mums. I think Scouting is great for the kids learning skills, having something better to do than watch idiots spouting shite on TikTok, and boys and girls being equal and working together, but it’s not a source of adult male role models - there’s not enough of those willing to give up their time!

Our male cubs / Scouts are definitely not the toxic masculinity type though.

If i was to be persuaded that boys left scouts for the manosphere because girls were allowed to join, I'd need evidence of several things.
The numbers of boys who left it failed to join scouts because it became mixed sex.
The number of former boy scouts who display a toxic masculinity that was absent in them when they were in single sex scouts.
The activities done in Scouts when it was single sex that challenged toxic masculinity, and how these activities have changed or been discontinued since girls were admitted.
If you haven't evidence of these things, its fine to just say you think boys should be entitled to single sex organisations, because if its OK for girls it should be ok for boys too. No need to over egg the pudding.

Is there evidence that the toxic males spewing hate used to be Scouts?
I thought the hatred came from social media - groups and channels grooming young boys into their hate agenda - and these are very much men only spaces
If anything, spending time and forming friendships with girls should prevent the issue.

Most of the men running my son's scout troop were utterly toxic males. They assumed they knew more than me about his medical condition and patronised me and spoke down to and bullied him.

We switched him to Air Cadets who have been great. Strong men and women leaders who are intelligent and empathetic and push the boys the right amount .

(I realise in both organisations it probably varies from group to group, but I hate naive generalisations)

Scouting has been mixed sex for years. Most of the leaders in my Group are female, especially in the younger sections. Boys do not need male-only spaces in the same way that girls need female-only spaces. A boy can do a lot more damage to a girl (physically, mentally, emotionally and sexually) than a girl can do to a boy. On camps, I always separate the sexes, even though I don’t actually have to.

For whatever reason, biology, socialisation?, girls are much more comfortable doing "boy" things than boys are doing "girl" things and I don't think it's possible to square that particular circle.

Do you have examples of boys/men from mixed scouts groups who are now making these videos/podcasts?

I was a girl Scout (in the UK), and there were quite a few tomboy-ish girls in our group. We would probably not have been considered best suited to the local Brownie/Guide group (they were considerably more 'tame' than us, their activities weren't always up our street, and we preferred trousers over skirts). In Beavers/Cubs/Scouts/Explorers, we did all of the same activities that the boys did, were Patrol Leaders, etc. I think it gave all of us a healthy respect for each other, regardless of what was down our trousers. I suspect that a male-only environment would stifle that, reinforce the idea that girls couldn't do the same things, and perhaps give rise to more of the toxic masculinity culture.

And perhaps if we could that would be a long way to reducing toxic masculinity.

Our sexist culture. If a girl does "boy" things that's considered an upgrade because anything male-coded is superior. If a boy does "girl" things it's considered a downgrade because he's sinking to the "inferior" sex. (See also "throws like a girl")

Female engineer - "wow, she's so smart, what a trailblazer"

Male nurse - "oh "

There used to a big network of Boys' Clubs in London. Maybe more widespread? Tended to be very working class and often based in areas of real deprivation.

Like all youth clubs, funding disappeared and changing work practices (eg working further from home, breakdown of social bonds that came from all working at the same factory etc) meant that people lost the habit of volunteering in their communities.

Volunteer run organisations have been reducing dramatically for years. It's not because girls joined in.

This post is absolutely bonkers. Scouting does nothing but promote equality, respect and teamwork between the boys and girls that attend - literally the opposite of toxic masculinity.

All the boys I know who are involved in the scouts are not like this?

Do you really think that Andrew Tate and his ilk were all boy scouts?

what a bizarre thread.

Are you still a leader?