AIBU to think Marrakesh was far worse than I expected?

[LondonLass37]

I'm 40. I went to Marrakesh for a week with a female friend of the same age. Both white, both blonde. Just looking for some warmth, culture, and a proper break.

What I experienced was genuinely awful.

We were harassed constantly , not just persistent sellers, but followed, hissed at, and touched. A man spat at my feet because I wouldn't give him money for directions I never asked for. Later, a drunk local chased us through the medina. We had to hide in a shop for nearly half an hour.

The medina is filthy. In the markets, animal carcasses hang next to food. Live donkeys are visibly mistreated and beaten. I'm still upset about what I saw.

The food was bland and lukewarm. My friend got food poisoning.

I wanted mint tea and beautiful tiles. Instead I felt unsafe and miserable.

So – AIBU? Or is Marrakesh genuinely as terrible as I found it?

You can, but I travel to see places, not to sit by a pool. What's the point of traveling thousands of miles just to stay in a hotel?

Was she not Western? I thought she came from a Western European country? Perhaps you live in Asia or somewhere else. Sorry for my assumption if that's the case.

So we can't have racist tropes but it's ok to condemn half of the world's population ?

Never felt the urge to go there. I won't be doing so now.

yes see it's very simple, if you have a dozen or so young men surrounding you, asking for sex and threatening to rape you, you just tell them..I don't know what exactly, that no thanks you're not interested?

Yes some people do just want a bit of winter sun. Some want to explore. Explore and you will certainly encounter more local flavour.

She is western - born and brought up in the UK. However, I wasn't sure if you were using the term as a proxy for "white".

show me a place in the world where men don’t behave like pigs towards women and I will take it back

How can you comment if you went somewhere 30 years ago?

There is also a slight undertone of "couldn't find McVities or Marmite anywhere!!"

One of the things I find convenient but also a bit disappointing about travelling in this global age is that things are often not as different as you might once have expected. The edges are all kind of blurred. In the upmarket areas, the same international brands pop up everywhere, hamburgers can be ubiquitous on tourist menus the world over.

Then when something IS culturally and visually distinct, people complain about that too.

What they are wanting is pretty tiles, stunning sunsets, a few brightly coloured babouches to take home, a tagine made of British lamb and imported bottled water and lots and lots of exotic-looking photos (definitely holding a comatose snake) so they can do a kind of Indiana Jones themed series of posts on their social media.

No. I was not.
I suspected that you were accusing me of that.
I am not white. However, I consider myself to be Western as this is my home and this is the culture I have adopted. It does impact how people treat me back in the country of origin though.
An interesting development of the discussion.

I went there maybe 25 years ago with my now DH and hated it.

I’m blonde, blue-eyed and experienced the same even though I was travelling with a man.

In the medina I had a man grab me and try and pull me away from DH. DH has hold of one arm, weird man had hold of the other and they were pulling me in opposite directions. It was terrifying. We didn’t feel safe at all the whole time.

I have travelled a lot in similar countries in the Middle East/rural Turkey/rural Africa/India etc where western women get stared at and it doesn’t bother me but Marrakesh was a whole different level where I genuinely feared for my safety.

I would feel safer as a tourist in Marocco then in many cities in the UK.

I see a lot of women literally looking like they’ve stepped in shit walking around Marrakesh. It’s like they were expecting Dubai and didn’t realise how culturally different Morocco is. If you are in someone’s home walking around with your Chanel bag and looking down your nose at people, you aren’t going to get a warm welcome. Instead learn the language, treat people with dignity be assertive and respectful and you’ll have the best time. I have countless stories and the most amazing friends from Morocco and will go back time and time again. I am sure that if Morocco wasn’t for you, then you weren’t for Morocco so best you stay away.

Fair enough. I would absolutely consider my mixed race dd to be "western" so we are in agreement on that.

I think sometimes, some tourists think they are going to a sort of sanitised theme park, when they travel.
All countries have different history and cultures to ours, their people live there, their governments are different, their way of socialising, and even their class systems may be more marked to ours.

Calling out is that is what their shopkeepers do to attract trade, likewise haggling. They are earnest, probably desperate to make a sale. It's annoying to us as tourists, but it's their livelihood.
Yes, some of their men and boys don't know how to behave around foreign 'independent' women, it is a misogynistic society, this is also a problem in Italy just slightly more refined.

As they are often hot countries, their women are expected to be modest, go out accompanied.

Remember, they too see the Hollywood films, which show 'foreign' women in a different light to theirs. They make assumptions.
As for animal welfare, the donkeys to them are working animals, not pets. Tradesmen who use them are poor, they don't have money for vets etc.
The stray dogs, Sorrento has loads as well, a lot larger abandoned pets! I found it strange, the cats had collared the Medina, while the dogs (they don't bark either) were outside. But, again they are not pets, and are not treated like we would.

Travelling is an experience. Some countries just require more adaption by tourists, especially if you are travelling outside Northern Europe

I think you have the wrong poster. I wasn't talking about Morocco.
I was just wondering about the expression that you used "don't suffer fools gladly". I can't see how that matches carrying a Chanel bag and having a mardy face?

I’ve never fancied Marrakesh but I am going in a couple of weekends time as friends are going there for a conference from Australia and I can meet them there. My friend is on her own for a couple of days so we’ll go to a spa and probably a guided tour. Only going for 3 nights and my husband can’t go as he doesn’t have enough holiday. I’m in my 50s so hoping I’m too old and haggard for the men to leer at! Wish me luck

Mine are too. So I was initially correct that she is Western European.

Yes.

Et voilà

However, in Marrakech you can enjoy the city; there is fine dining, relaxation, art galleries, high end bars - the French have built an really good scene there (in concert with the Moroccans). Just stay away from the Medina - the shit area, as you say.

I want 8 years ago and had a similar experience with my female friend.
. We also had really awful service, even in our luxury (but small boutique) hotel. When my male friend joined us for a couple of days we got better service - even in my hotel, where he wasn’t a guest. That really annoyed me! We also went to Essouria on the coast and it was totally different- relaxed, good service, people warm and helpful and much cheaper. So I don’t think it’s the whole country/culture.

Being told 'fuck you' is hardly local culture...

I’ve been to Morocco - Casablanca, Taroudant and Casablanca as part of a cruise - day trips. Found it interesting and was glad I was on guided tours. I thought it was dirty and not very clean. I wouldn’t go back.
I’ve been to Istanbul with a friend of mine for a long weekend - found th major sites very interesting but got loads of hassle. We were both 42 at the time. I wouldn’t go back to Turkey or Morocco.

What does it being hot have to do with the women being modest and having to be accompanied?