AIBU to think Marrakesh was far worse than I expected?

[LondonLass37]

I'm 40. I went to Marrakesh for a week with a female friend of the same age. Both white, both blonde. Just looking for some warmth, culture, and a proper break.

What I experienced was genuinely awful.

We were harassed constantly , not just persistent sellers, but followed, hissed at, and touched. A man spat at my feet because I wouldn't give him money for directions I never asked for. Later, a drunk local chased us through the medina. We had to hide in a shop for nearly half an hour.

The medina is filthy. In the markets, animal carcasses hang next to food. Live donkeys are visibly mistreated and beaten. I'm still upset about what I saw.

The food was bland and lukewarm. My friend got food poisoning.

I wanted mint tea and beautiful tiles. Instead I felt unsafe and miserable.

So – AIBU? Or is Marrakesh genuinely as terrible as I found it?

Yes way, its a fairly common expression.

Italy has changed (half my family is from Italy). Some men/boys would make mild appreciative comments or flirt - sorry not sorry I enjoyed it when I was young! You would do the passagiata and eye each other up. But any kind of assault was extremely rare - in fact almost unheard of.

Nowadays I think Italian men are far more reticent. Not just my experience (too old to turn heads now!) but those of my young female relatives.

HOWEVER Italy has a large volume of particularly Moroccan migrants (and, after all, we are discussing Marrakesh) and unfortunately women have to be wary of them. Even 20 years ago in the centre of Milan a man grabbed my hair and was fondling it to his friends’ amusement.

I wasn’t comparing at all, the poster I was replying to said ‘But Malta is a Catholic country, you must be mistaken, in which Catholic countries are women harassed in public places?’

I’m in Italy and Portugal several times a year and know them well.

Generally no, nobody has ever interfered in any case or said anything.

If you pay close attention, outside of cosmopolitan areas, there’s an expectation of women to dress modestly as well. Remember that in Portugal or Italy, our mothers’ generation didn’t work in paid professional jobs, unless in places like Milan, Rome, Lisbon etc.

From the top of my head I’m struggling to think of one Portuguese man that I personally know that doesn’t hold ‘traditional values’ about the role of women, and I know many.

I also hated it being blonde, I might as well have been naked in the medina
never felt safe even though I was with DP

Ill never go there again, even if it was free

Yeah I had this for the five years I lived in France in my twenties. I gave as good as I got but it was a daily occurrence in summer. TBF a lot of the French women seemed to lap it up, especially the older women, who all had amazing figures and really showed them off.

I’m sorry. I’d say google it, but to be honest, having read stories of black women trafficked into Italy, I’d actually say no, don’t google it. It’s a whole Industry in Nigeria.

Unfortunately if I was a black woman, I wouldn’t feel safe or comfortable in Italy. It’s so depressing.

My Italian friend’s wife is black Danish and it breaks my heart, the treatment she gets when she’s not with her husband

I've had that in the UK, always white men, always old enough to know better. The first time I was 13 and in a shopping mall with my mum, he was in his 50s 🤮

Re "safe for western tourists"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-49029505

Any woman who claims they felt "perfectly safe" there is lying or too unobservant to travel safely anywhere.

That's absolutely barbaric.

I don’t think young western women can independently travel in Africa or India sadly.

My black friend said that Italian men think that she was a prostitute when she visited.

Those murders were horrific and I remember reading about them at the time. But they were carried out in 2018, at the height of the rise of ISIS, by ISIS supporters, and the women were in a vulnerable situation - hiking on their own in a remote area. That’s hardly the same as visiting a city like Marrakech for a holiday nearly ten years later. If that’s the most recent example you can find of an horrific crime against tourists, then I think I’d rather take my chances in Marrakech than walking the streets of most major cities in the uk.

Numerous issues when in Egypt on an organised adventure holiday and again when holidaying in Morocco. You are fine in the hotels, but venturing out is a different story.

on a school trip to Germany in the nineties I was groped and shouted at (as were my school friends) several times, always by Turkish men (that’s the language they were speaking according to our teachers)

Im married to one he is the most feminist guy I know ! I also don’t know why you think Portugal is super religious, there is divorce rate of over 40% ! I go there all the time . Fair enough family is from Lisbon but we holiday in a very calm rural area and men would never treat a woman the way you describe at all . Same for italy . I find both country men s lot more progressive than uk ones , they spend much more time at home and with the kids as a example and they help loads .

As the poster above my husband is Portuguese we go there 2-3 times a year for big blocks of time and i also send my daughter there with and without us since she was 13 for holidays with her grandparents and it's never been anything close to Marrakech or India. Sorry don't pretend muslim majority counties are similar to European countries with safety amongst men.

“My black friend said that Italian men think that she was a prostitute when she visited.”
This is awful, one of my nieces is black and I know she’s going to face racism still on top of misogyny all her life.
The men who are coming here on boats illegally, 600 a day between now and September, every year forever it seems, view white women the same way,
we won’t have to go to Marrakesh to experience this “cultural enrichment”
what fun.

Thanks for validating this . I alway feel so safe in Portugal I honestly was struggling with this person comparison . We went to Egypt last year and took my 10 year old alone out one day and I would never do it again . The worst thing is ,its worse not better , I solo traveled to Egypt 20 years ago and it was safer back then .

When we went to Morocco we booked a small group tour for a week and then a week on our own by the sea. It turned out that we were the only couple, with a driver and guide.
We had a great time, but only due to the guide protecting us from harassment and the driver picking us up directly outside venues.
During the week on our own we felt quite comfortable in politely saying ‘No’ and all was fine. It’s very interesting country, but I’ve no desire to go back.

Meant to add we frequently visit Portugal and have always found the Portuguese lovely and welcoming.

If you went when you were older I doubt you would have any issues. They mostly target younger women so over 50s and over 60s were left alone.
I wish that was true but it wasn't my expierence. I just wanted to stand in the middle of the medina and scream 'everyone just fuck off and leave me alone!!!!'

I largely agree with you. When I went to India, I had a similar experience, though not as severe. The main issue was that nearly every man wanted to take a picture with me. I felt somewhat bemused, I think being blonde may have sparked some curiosity. It wasn't a major problem in a big city like Delhi, but when we traveled further inland, it became much worse. I was there with DH

Blonde, big boobs daughter and 2 granddaughters went to Turkey. The first day they were harassed by the male shopkeepers trying to touch her chest and hair. They had only gone outside the hotel to buy suncream as they had forgotten.
Next day 6ft 3 built like a brick house son in law joined them and none of them were bothered again for the rest of the holiday.

Yes unfortunately there is an entire industry centred around Black migrant women and prostitution. The town I stayed in where my Italian friend lives has black women from Francophone Africa so local men assumed that’s where I was from and attempted to speak to me in French. Unfortunately since I’m bilingual English/French I was able to understand their disgusting comments.

I posted on MN over a decade ago when my DD was a baby as I was worried about visiting DP’s home town as a Black woman (he is from the South of Italy) and was told I was being silly, just deal with it, oh that’s nothing, just try being a white women in [insert Muslim/Arabic/African country]. There was a lot of whataboutery and minimalising because I am not white and blonde so don’t know what real harassment looks like🤷🏽‍♀️

Excellent points, and I hate the minimisation of this happening to us and our daughters.