To think that if you’re prepared to travel to an IVF clinic outside the UK in a country where fertility treatment is not as tightly regulated as here then you need to accept the risks?

[KimberleyClark]

Obviously it’s awful that this has happened. But nobody is forced to go abroad.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74v5jd5zkjo

Well, you know how. They were probably struggling for money.

And I really do not feel very hopeful about the UK. Yes, there's regulation, but clinics need to abide by it much, much more carefully.

And, I do not think it is fair to blame these women. I doubt they thought 'ooh, let's do something risky and see if it works'.

I think you should be able to expect to get what you pay for no matter what country you are in.

Awful thing to happen.

What is the attraction to Northern Cyprus in particular for fertility treatment? Surely cost must be a factor but surely other countries must also be more affordable.

I remember reading that Northen Cyprus is one of the few places that do gender selection, but I didn't see that mentioned in the report.

Because it’s cheap and unregulated.

And I hold the parents entirely responsible. They are creating human beings, not getting their teeth done. If they can’t afford donor conception IVF properly which is done in the best interests of the children they create, they shouldn’t be doing it at all.

Cost massively
But also they are more willing to take on things like high bmi, amh scores etc. Lots of the lower cost clinics in the uk have very strict criteria, but even when you're paying the full whack then they are still selective.

They also have much higher success rates. For us they had more interest in trying different things. For us we only have the money for a select number of rounds so the poor success rates of uk weighed heavily

Lots of the people I know that went abroad went for egg donation which has lengthy lists in the uk and not much choice

We had some bad experiences with uk clinics losing paperwork, missing appts and generally poor care. They were very "this is the protocol" sorry if it doesn't fit but we've started it so we will finish which is tricky when its tens of thousands of pounds

The big few for tourism were cyprus, Spain, Portugal, Czech republic.

North cyprus is attractive to lesbian couples because theres a surprising amount of countries eg Germany, Italy, Czech republic don't allow same sex couples. Lots of same sex couples/single females/ people who don't meet their countries criteria seek outwards

In general people look for transport links, one who allow you to use uk things for scans, and affordability.

For me we were weighing up waiting to meet the criteria for affordable ivf and the impact that has on fertility, or going abroad, and paying more for poorer care and less likely for success

We have spent much more than that on IVF. It hasn't been easy. We have sacrificed so much, have a smaller house, older cars, fewer holidays, make savings on lots of things, don't wear makeup, get hair cut twice a year, hardly buy new clothes, miss lots of social events, still paying off debts before going again. Just because people spend the money doesn't mean they have it easily available.

Its worth also saying that it's impacted by a time race too. And obviously being aware you can't blow through all your money, take on loans etc if you are about to go on mat leave!

Couples are often scrambling for waiting lists of donors (eggs), saving, losing weight etc, trying for the pre requisite time, against the deadlines.

For example my clinic in the uk was reluctant over 37 (and massively ramped the costs up over 37)

I got married at 30, spent two years getting in the right shape and saving and was already beginning to worry about being unable to concieve a sibling. 33(to try needing poss a few cycles), 34 lost in pregnancy, 35- mat leave, 36 to re- enter the process perilously close to 37 where the costs ramped up.

All while being told frequently the longer I waited the less my chances were and the longer it was likely to take ironically. Fertility services really push the impact of delays. It felt like they were screaming about my declining egg quality

If I was saving for a kitchen I wouldn't have been so worried about the speed, and been less likely to try and cut costs.

My nhs trust would offer one cycle if you were under 35 only (which is true for many trusts!). So say you get married at the uk average of 30, do your two years of trying, get told you need to have lost weight or spent longer with not drinking, spend a year waiting for all the referrals to go through etc. I know several people that got aged out of nhs help very easily

I'm more concerned with the lack of of regulation in other countries in regards to multiple embryo transfers and disregarding factors such as age creating very high risk pregnancies.

However I do think that IVF provision on the country does push women into finding alternatives.

My son/DIL were considering N Cyprus if their latest round of UK IVF was not successful (4th). It's a no no now. So sad for them.

So if this had happened in a UK clinic, you'd feel bad for them, but because it happened abroad, you don't, basically?

That makes no sense to me.

I feel really sorry for them, and for people in the UK who've had clinics make mistakes.

Lots of the people I know that went abroad went for egg donation which has lengthy lists in the uk and not much choice

Not much choice? Do you mean fewer young women willing to go through the risks of egg donation because they need the money? Or even fewer women being trafficked and enslaved for their eggs?

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/women-enslaved-in-georgia-for-human-egg-harvesting-by-chinese-gangsters-report-7665007

Yes. They’ve deliberately created a child using an anonymous donor which is morally and ethically wrong in my view

So that means they - and their children - deserve this?

I cannot get my head around that. I also think it's wrong for children not to be able to access identifying information about their biological parents. But to me, it seems like a huge leap to go from that to thinking 'oh well, this family deserved whatever was coming to them'.

I think the poster is questioning the moral aspect of using doner conception.

Let's face it human error is/ can be an issue. It's difficult to proof for certain if the error was intentional or not.

No, I don't think so? She has a donor conceived child, I think?

I also think it's wrong for children not to be able to access identifying information about their biological parents

I am so torn about this. I absolutely agree it’s in the kids best interest. However, decades ago, when I was at uni, so many male peers donated, they n the basis of anonymity. They would often do a donation a week to fund Friday night drinks, and be generous about it, given us girls did not have the ability to make the same ‘drinking money’. I’m in Australia, so likely different rules to UK, but here one State ruled at at a certain point that there would be no historical anonymity, which I believe is wrong given that is what these guys were promised at the time when they donated. If they believed there would be none, they would not have donated. I’m in a different state, so my uni peers anonymity is preserved, there was no backdating here, just open details from a certain date which allowed donate to make a choice, which I believe is morally correct.

So, totally agree that children should be able to access details from donations made under conditions that anonymity would not exist, but disagree about access for historical donations made on the condition of anonymity.

Online DNA data bases make anonymity a moot point. People can now trace their relatives via any extended family that have put their DNA out there and they can usually make at least an education guess at who their genetic parent is assuming they get some sort of familial link.

@GriseldaandMike doesn’t necessarily mean you can contact them though

True, but neither does having the donors identity.

This was an important point for us swerving anonymous without id release

The reality is that there's a good chance they will traceable and when and if our kids trace them I would want the person they find to have been prepared for that possibility

This was an important point for us swerving anonymous without id release

The reality is that there's a good chance they will traceable and when and if our kids trace them I would want the person they find to have been prepared for that possibility

This was an important point for us swerving anonymous without id release

The reality is that there's a good chance they will traceable and when and if our kids trace them I would want the person they find to have been prepared for that possibility

What risk to my child, born through IVF, is greater than the risk to a child born to a couple with health issues/alcohol or drug dependency/mental health problems/inter-family marriage and the list goes on.

So, tell me, explicitly, why my perfectly healthy child was more at risk than those children born to those above.

Or whilst we are ‘banning’ things, let’s ban all women in the above categories (by sterilisation) from ever having children. That ok?

Don’t think health risks are huge for children born via IVF, but certain risks are slightly higher.

Obviously, there are more psychological risks to children born from donors

I do feel sorry for them, but when the price is too good to be true -it probably is.