To think that if you’re prepared to travel to an IVF clinic outside the UK in a country where fertility treatment is not as tightly regulated as here then you need to accept the risks?

[KimberleyClark]

Obviously it’s awful that this has happened. But nobody is forced to go abroad.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74v5jd5zkjo

Well I just wish them all luck ..The children look gorgeous anyway, and I'm sure they are and will continue to be much loved by their parents.

I don't see what's wrong with wanting to choose physical characteristics of the donor - it's natural to want your child to resemble you and your partner. Or to screen out health conditions. Or even to choose someone whose interests are similar. I think lots of children have struggled when they feel that they didn't 'fit' within their families and having similar characteristics to parents/siblings is part of that.

I think the eugenics argument is only valid if we are saying that one 'look' is superior. I don't think that people truly believe that. A brunette, brown eyed couple are unlikely to chose a blonde, blue eyed donor, for example. They will likely choose a donor who is similar to them.
It seems wrong to me to make ivf so much harder than conceiving is for those of us who were fortunate not to have fertility issues. No one tells a woman who can conceive naturally, that she can't select the father of her child based on her own criteria, whatever that is.

I hope the children never read this story. I don’t doubt their parents line them. But it would see the seeds of doubt that they weren’t what parents wanted.

Love*

Surely it would be worse if they'd grown up with their parents telling them how carefully they selected a donor, then finding out that donor was totally different?

My DD knows a bit about her donor and I have always told her we chose him because he sounded so nice and wrote such nice things in his statement for her prospective parents.

If she were to turn 18 and find out he was some completely different person - or even (and this isn't impossible) someone who hated the idea of lesbians having children and was disgusted - it could be upsetting.

I think these situations are hard. Im not sure i would have given my pictures

There's been plenty of people that have spoken out about having the wrong embryo transferred or situations for example where the dr himself was using his sperm without telling people

Similar to birth trauma, if you speak out people will tell you that you've got a healthy baby you shouldn't complain etc

But equally how do you highlight some massive areas of poor practise? Some ivf clinics are cowboys and you normally only know that if you've had treatment with them, and I often feel like people don't complain about what they should simply for fear of looking ungrateful

This is now being spoken about, but lots of ivf related stuff gets hushed under the carpet because people aren't open about it

It's a shame but I suspect that part of the mothers' reason for choosing Cyprus is that sperm donors can never get information about their children or contact them - unlike in the UK and some other European countries. So it's hard to see what difference this makes to their family. Their dad is a total stranger anyway.

There's a lot of issues with clinics in Northern Cyprus. The Times ran a long piece last month on egg donation and surrogacy there. The woman found at least 17 clinics in Nicosia including ones that will fly in women from Georgia or Uzbekistan or Kazakhstan.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/1c119d3c-1b53-49ae-8b5a-bd3c4c3bd604?shareToken=17d992934e460fa7512993393e676be2&ver=article

@SarahAndQuack can your DD trace their father?

I agree with this.

I think there's a huge pressure to say 'oh well, you have a baby, how upset can you be?' and the point is, the whole industry needs to be better regulated. Inevitably there will be some people who are not ok at all. It's not trivial, either. I think people imagine 'oh well, it's all sperm, what's the issue?' but actually, you would be gutted if you found out a hereditary condition had been passed on to your baby, or you'd not got pregnant because the sperm wasn't any good, wouldn't you?

I had treatment in the UK - all UK clinics require this. DD's donor dad also make it clear he had thought about it personally (I think, though I am not sure, that his wife had donor eggs).

This is probably false. We looked at North Cyprus because there was more info on donors

Again other countries eg Spain, czech republic insist on anonymous donors, but cyprus isn't one of them. I can't think of a single lesbian couple i know that plumped for a clinic abroad because it was anonymous, I know more swerving countries.

I don't think in the uk the donor gets your details and I don't think that's the case in any country. The child (now adult) gets the details and gets to chose to make contact

We were looking at north cyprus after bad experiences in the uk with clinics being chaotic, the success rate was far higher, costs far cheaper, its commutable, had better customer service, and offered greater flexibility.

The usual recommended and popular destinations for ivf abroad in Europe are

-Spain- anon only
-Czech - anon, non same sex couples
-greece. Allows same sex and either anon or not anon

• North cyprus. Allows same sex and either

A surprising amount of countries don't allow same sex couples eg Italy, Poland, Turkey etc

Again often the focus is on lesbian couples but most egg,embryo, and sperm donation recipients are straight couples where a surprising amount are still fueling the drive for anonymous donation and not always informing their children

The reality is most same sex parents have the conversation in mind from the get go because there is no hiding it. You tend to find that donor concieved information pages are highly populated by same sex couples because they know what's coming and are expected to be accountable. When I suggested them to a hetro friend who had egg donor treatment,she hadn't even heard of them, and hadn't got round to buying the book yet and felt like they wanted to tell them at 18. Her pre usage counselling was very tick box, and no one is sparking the conversation with her more widely.

I've never heard of that in the lesbian community because it is part of our story from day one

@Rawesome in the article about this case in Northern Cyprus it said that the donor was anonymous

I hope the children never read this story.

The son is quoted in the story, and the parents say the children know the facts.

But now, with their photos all over the internet, everyone else knows too. Raising awareness is one thing. Ignoring their children's right to privacy is something else entirely.

Similar to birth trauma, if you speak out people will tell you that you've got a healthy baby you shouldn't complain etc

While I agree about speaking out and making people aware of potential issues, I think that a) sharing pictures of DC is wrong and b) trying to sue a clinic in another country with different laws will be almost impossible. These children aren't a commodity that has been delivered in the wrong colour, they are living & breathing human beings with their own thoughts and intellect.

It can be either, but anonymous is also used for id release often by the press.

My point was that in terms of choosing ivf destinations there are many countries that are a complete write off for same sex couples including some of the most popular ones (Czech republic), and some countries you wouldn't expect (Germany for example)

Some of the most popular ones in europe that have whole industires around ivf tourism completely insist on anonymous donors, and some give you bugger all information

If they were seeking completely anonymous and that was their reason for choice you'd probably go to them

North Cyprus allows both.

I've just not heard of people selecting north cyprus specifically for its donor laws, but more likely the price and less restrictions and higher success rates.

I just don't think its fair to say that people that go abroad are probably doing it to get round uk laws or should known its dodgy. We looked at paying extensively for uk sperm to be shipped to get the uk regulation (it wasn't possible), and considered it after some bad experiences in the uk

But saying what you are saying is very like people who say 'I don't understand you making a fuss about your traumatic birth - you had a beautiful baby so how dare you be upset your body is wrecked and you are frightened for your future health'.

It's not about 'a commodity that has been delivered in the wrong colour'.

This couple will have thought they chose a donor who had been screened for heritable conditions, who was a certain age, who was who the clinic said he was.

They will be worrying about those things.

That is mind blowing. Seems that human gametes and women’s bodies are truly commodities now.

@SarahAndQuack I did not say: I don't understand you making a fuss about your traumatic birth - you had a beautiful baby so how dare you be upset your body is wrecked and you are frightened for your future health

I said that I sharing pictures of DC is wrong. I look at it from the children's point of view. These pictures were shared because of the difference in the children highlighted by skin, hair & eye colour. What impact does such a comparison statement have on the DC long term? How can anyone say to their child actually you aren't quite what I expected you to be in relation to physical features. Then do an DNA test and actually the child isn't what they have paid for... quite frankly it is horrific for the child and the parents. I mean every time they look st each other there is this huge question mark. And now it's all in the public domain these questions will also be asked by strangers.

I agree with highlighting the issue but with consideration for the children. Something that wasn't done in this instance.

I look at it from the children's point of view too.

I am not sure about sharing pictures, but it may be they couldn't get the story out there without?

Of course the first thing they noticed - as they do explain - was a visible difference. Just as, if you were worried your child had been mixed up with another baby on the ward, you might first think 'wait, how come this baby has brown eyes and we both have blue?'

That would not mean that you could only love a blue-eyed baby. You would probably be hugely reassured to learn that, actually (let's say) your DP had a brown-eyed ancestor who was responsible and it was all fine.

No one would conclude you were worrying about the actual eye colour - they'd understand you were worrying that you'd brought home a baby that wasn't yours.

It's the same.

I don't follow why you think the children don't deserve to know this sort of thing?

This and their photos and info will be online forever

@SarahAndQuack the children do need to know, but I am assuming they were never going to know who their dad was anyway, so it being a different one is not going to make much difference to them

I am assuming they were never going to know who their dad was anyway, so it being a different one is not going to make much difference to them

But the idea of them having the same donor, was that the children would be biologically related to each other. As it is, with two different donors, there is no biological relationship between them, as they have different mothers.

Indeed , but they were quite happy to let the children say ‘we are half danish’ , no idea who he is though and no hope of tracing their danish family .

I find it quite unclear from the article whether ‘anonymous’ in this case meant that the original donor could never be traced, or whether as a PP mentioned he had agreed to ID release at 18 if the children wanted it. It sounded like he had provided quite a detailed profile including an extended family tree, a health history and a handwritten note, plus of course they have the DNA of their first child - how much info can someone provide before they do start to become traceable?

Obviously it’s a different kettle of fish with the donor for the second child because he hasn’t provided any of those things, but that wasn’t their intention.

I find the ethical concerns about knowing a donor’s skin tone and eye colour a bit odd - this is information you have when selecting a real-life partner also?!