To think cheating/lying does not remove consent

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I watched this video (damn Facebook ads) and was surprised at what Liv Nervo was saying -
https://www.facebook.com/GoodLawProject.org/videos/liv-nervo-speaks-out-against-the-man-who-tricked-her-into-pregnancy-shes-fightin/2018375549095913/

summary is Nervo was in a relationship with a man. Six months into pregnancy with him (they both were actively trying to conceive) she found out he had a whole other family and even an additional woman he in a separate relationship with, ie he was cheating and had either lied or not openly disclosed this (or both).

In Nervo’s opinion this equates to rape as she didn’t give her full consent (as if she had known he wasn’t single she wouldn’t have had sex with him) and also coercive pregnancy. She seems to be saying that rape consent laws need to be updated and a new offence of coercive pregnancy needs to be created.

Nervo doesn’t mention this in her video, but it appears this all came out because of a financial/custody dispute, and when the “Good Law Project” started representing her these additional allegations got thrown into the mix. https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/djs-ex-partner-escapes-costs-order-in-bitter-family-proceedings/5126217.article

Whilst I feel this man is morally reprehensible and certainly support his naming and shaming, and I’m sympathetic to Nervo, I personally don’t think what he did was criminal. Saying the law needs to change or is outdated to accommodate this scenario is both concerning to me in terms of what we think is criminal vs immoral behaviour, and also in this particular case I’d worry it risks undermining what is currently rape under the law, eg you don’t consent at the time. Very different to saying actually it wasn’t consensual months later because of new information you have found out.

and whilst pregnancy by coercion is awful, I don’t think that’s what happened here. To me this would be forcing someone to get pregnant (either via rape or lying about using a condom or tampering with contraception). if that’s currently not a crime then I would support changing the law to make that illegal.

I also think the so called “Good Law Project” is doing more harm than good in this case but that’s maybe a separate discussion!

I was just wondering if I out of touch and do others think Nervo is right to say what happened to her is rape/coercive pregnancy? AIBU to think whilst what he did was awful it’s not illegal?

I agree with you OP.and I think you have articulated your view point really well .

I agree with you..someone doesn't need to meet a legal threshold for us to comfortably label them an absolute monster. I would not be okay with someone being able to accuse another of rape simply because they purposely lied or didnt disclose something that would have changed the mind of the other. That slope is way too slippery.

I don't see how it could ever be enforceable but can you actually give proper concern with incomplete or inaccurate information?

What happened to her is bloody awful, but it wasn't rape.

It is not rape because it is not rape and calling it rape doesn't make it so

I suppose at a stretch it could be sexual assault? Given they were having unprotected sex in order to conceive he was putting her at unknown risk, and we choose to have unprotected sex with a partner with whom we assume we are in a monogamous relationship with, we are also assuming they have no diseases etc?

I can understand her argument about rape, don’t agree necessarily but open to having my mind changed about that.

if we bought a financial product which we were told was 0% and then found out we were being charged 10% we’d be able to have that agreement cancelled with no recourse against us as the terms and conditions hadn’t been enacted to what we had agreed….

It’s not sexual assault at all, just unfortunate circumstances. Even if in a proper relationship you should never assume that your partner is free of any STIs etc and it’s your responsibility to get checked at the start

I don’t think it’s anything that can be enforced legally, really, but morally I think it’s much more difficult. For example, if I was to tell a partner that I only consented to having sex with them if they’re monogamous with me then they’d be violating that consent by cheating.

There is interesting case law on this.

the basic question is how far and what aspects of a person does someone need to be lying about before the consent is considered not informed.

so for example there are cases where a person has claimed to be the gender which they are physically not (ie claimed to be a man when biologically a woman and vice versa) and in those cases consent is generally held not to have been given - the deception is material to the consent.

by contrast if someone lied about their GCSE results or whether they had a job that deception isn’t material to consent.

someone already being married and having kids is arguable as to whether the deception is material to consent.

either way it isn’t rape. Sex by deception or similar would be a good description.

Well it wasn't informed consent was it? I think there should be a separate category for tgis.

This behaviour causes extreme damage and trauma and is entirely avoidable by someone simply... being honest. It's not that radical to me.

If someone lied to that degree in a working sphere, for example, they'd be sacked. Is that level of dishonesty really ok because it's done to a woman?

PP have acknowledged it's awful, so why should there not be any consequences?

It's a tricky one. I see her point. The question is, is lying illegal? Lying to your bank is illegal, lying to your government is illegal, lying to a police officer is illegal, lying about having hiv is illegal (I beleive) she wouldn't bave consented to sex or pregnancy had he not lied. She is in a very difficult position now because of that. Raising a child as a single parent. And I imagine feels used and "dirty" about the sex.

I feel like it's a civil case, rather than a criminal one? Like he owes her compensation for sure for the child and for the emotional impact. But does lying warrant prison time?

Part of the reason I posted is I feel this is part of an overall more worrying trend of different versions of the “truth” (my truth etc) and anyone who disagrees is seen as un progressive or backward.

I can see one my friends had liked the video and that’s why I was interested in wider opinion - would this friend think I was anti-feminist or “backward” if I said I disagreed with this? Would it make her judge me or see me differently that I disagreed?

Twisting definitions of things like rape, gaslighting, coercion to fit “your” narrative I think is just going to do more harm than good for women / female equality over time imo.

on the deception point yes I’m aware of the case where a woman pretended to be a man and had sex with another woman with a sex toy and that was considered rape. Whilst the woman had consented to sex, she had consented to sex with a man/penis, not a sex toy. So she hadn’t consented to sex with a sex toy which I think is the legal nuance (although I’m not a lawyer obviously!).

I do think that is different - here Nervo clearly knew what sex she was having and consented to that. To me that is “informed consent”.

I know you're only supposed to edit posts for typos so I'm adding another comment.

As an ex sexworker, I have encountered a few men who behave the way he has, and all of them had a breeding fetish. It's disgusting I know, but they get off on seeing a woman pregnant with their children, they find them more attractive when they're pregnant, love the bodily changes etc. It can also go much deeper than that in ways that are truly disgusting.

Honestly I learned so much about how disgusting men truly are doing that job.

I don't know about rape but sex obtained through deception about fundamental aspects of the relationship can be a form of coercion through manipulating someone’s ability to give informed, meaningful consent.

Consent isn’t just “did you say yes?”. It’s also about saying yes to what you believed was happening. If you have sex and get pregnant under false pretences, they’re removing your ability to consent to the actual situation. Therefore, your consent was engineered, not freely given.

It should atleast fall under sexual assault by deception. Same with if someone lies about contraception or identity.

It should be considered the way involuntary manslaughter, etc are, which would also act as deterrent to some of these idiots who do it.

How far could that go? I never would have had children with him if I had realised what a jerk he was, therefore it was rape? (About half the posters on here it seems sometimes). How much do you not know about someone even if you think you know them well, through not asking particular questions or not getting comprehensive answers, that case was extreme but what would be a good enough reason if that was accepted.

I know you're only supposed to edit posts for typos...

No, you edit posts if you feel you missed anything you wanted to write including typos, adding or removing words or sentences. There are no rules to what you can edit.

putting a woman and baby at risk of std i think should be a criminal offence

knowingly infecting someone with H.I V was considered a custodial sentence in a case if I remember correctly

This would set a far worse precedent for women imo. If coercive pregnancy becomes a thing then how many men will claim they were tricked into pregnancy by women?

An Israeli Arab was convicted of “rape by deception” in 2010 because the woman concerned said she would not have slept with him had she known he was not Jewish. He maintained he’d never pretended he was.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10717186

I’m also thinking of the undercover policemen who had sexual relationships with women while undercover. What they did was terrible but is it rape? To what extent is consenting to sex at your own risk?

I notice people who get in mad situations have a straight line to just being generally mad people.

trying to conceive after knowing a man 6 months is the first sign she’s a live wire.

the consent issues is almost irrelevant. Let her take it to the police, or a private prosecution and have the law tested.

presumably she’s being used as a vehicle to campaign for social change (the good law project are also mad people but let’s put that aside) and that’s a longer wider piece with no direct implication for her relationship.

Surely she (and GLP) are blurring ‘sex by deception’ with rape? Two different things. I would argue that the guy has done the first - as she consent to sex (and trying to conceive) on the basis of an understanding that he was single. You can lie by omission and it would be reasonable to assume that if someone wants to have a baby with you that they are single. However, without all the facts (and I can’t necessarily be bothered to deep dive the circumstances) unless they were living together/renting/co-home owning, I am not sure why any woman would start TTC with a man without those obvious and tangible signs of commitment that would, in turn, evidence that he was not involved elsewhere. Not victim blaming, but in law there is a principle of taking reasonable steps to protect ourselves or, at least, not contributing to the harm er suffer isn’t there?

I agree with you, going down this road of expanding what constitutes as rape will undermine actual rape. You can't compare being cheated on with being raped. Sex offences are currently (and rightly so) seen as abhorrent and there is a huge amount of shame in being a sex offender which will deter some from committing the offence. Although cheating is also frowned upon and immoral, it is nothing compared to sex offences. If we start jumping cheaters in the same box, sex offences may not be seen as badly as they are now.

Anyone can claim anything. Proving it is what determines if it's true or not. Getting bodily fluid out of anyone (man or woman) by deception should be an offence.

It already is an offence, it can be prosecuted as an Offence Against the Person if you knowingly have an STI, conceal that from a sexual partner, and pass it on to them. But there’s no legal basis for “putting somebody at risk” by having sex with them when you might potentially have had an STI because you also had other sexual partners, but don’t actually have an STI and haven’t passed one on, as no harm has been caused.

I am off the opinion that the cheating in the lying is breach of contract and it angered me greatly that we brought in no fault because there is usually somebody at fault.
If the contract is legally binding and requires a court to dissolve it, then there needs to be breach of contract terms that can also be enforced.
I think it’s hard enough to get a rape conviction anyway without muddying the waters any further but this definitely is a criminal offence. Misrepresentation fraud call it what you will.