To think cheating/lying does not remove consent

[FastLemonFinch]

I watched this video (damn Facebook ads) and was surprised at what Liv Nervo was saying -
https://www.facebook.com/GoodLawProject.org/videos/liv-nervo-speaks-out-against-the-man-who-tricked-her-into-pregnancy-shes-fightin/2018375549095913/

summary is Nervo was in a relationship with a man. Six months into pregnancy with him (they both were actively trying to conceive) she found out he had a whole other family and even an additional woman he in a separate relationship with, ie he was cheating and had either lied or not openly disclosed this (or both).

In Nervo’s opinion this equates to rape as she didn’t give her full consent (as if she had known he wasn’t single she wouldn’t have had sex with him) and also coercive pregnancy. She seems to be saying that rape consent laws need to be updated and a new offence of coercive pregnancy needs to be created.

Nervo doesn’t mention this in her video, but it appears this all came out because of a financial/custody dispute, and when the “Good Law Project” started representing her these additional allegations got thrown into the mix. https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/djs-ex-partner-escapes-costs-order-in-bitter-family-proceedings/5126217.article

Whilst I feel this man is morally reprehensible and certainly support his naming and shaming, and I’m sympathetic to Nervo, I personally don’t think what he did was criminal. Saying the law needs to change or is outdated to accommodate this scenario is both concerning to me in terms of what we think is criminal vs immoral behaviour, and also in this particular case I’d worry it risks undermining what is currently rape under the law, eg you don’t consent at the time. Very different to saying actually it wasn’t consensual months later because of new information you have found out.

and whilst pregnancy by coercion is awful, I don’t think that’s what happened here. To me this would be forcing someone to get pregnant (either via rape or lying about using a condom or tampering with contraception). if that’s currently not a crime then I would support changing the law to make that illegal.

I also think the so called “Good Law Project” is doing more harm than good in this case but that’s maybe a separate discussion!

I was just wondering if I out of touch and do others think Nervo is right to say what happened to her is rape/coercive pregnancy? AIBU to think whilst what he did was awful it’s not illegal?

IMO, the serious offence is not about cheating or lying or being a jerk. She now has to either keep the baby or terminate the pregnancy. These are two stressful processes her body and mind would have to go through. None of which she likely would have gone through had she known he had a whole other family.

Having someone get pregnant under the guise of being in a committed relationship and starting a family should be considered a serious offence.

Will this include women who lie to men that they are on contraception to fool a man into fatherhood ?
I think rather than trying to bring legal action, this woman should probably have got to know this man better. She obviously wanted motherhood so thats what she got 😏

Am i missing something? She wants infidelity criminalised. Why do we need to introduce new words?

There are probably millions of women who’ve slept with a man believing him to be something he wasn’t - lying about their job for example.

I think this too.

Will this include women who lie to men that they are on contraception to fool a man into fatherhood ?

It should.

Agree.
Rape is already notoriously difficult to prosecute. Criminalising morally questionable behaviour will not help those women who did not give consent in the moment to achieve justice.

Well "dumped" is the equivalent of sacked in this context, isn't it? Consequences aren't always legal ones.

This overlaps with my legal speciality, which specifically excludes personal scenarios from its regulation. Because it would be utterly to impossible to legislate for the responsibilities we have to each other.

And I wouldn't want it to be tried. Look at the thread on offering a tissue as an act of offence - could you come up with a set of rules that allowed for those feelings? I wouldn't like to try.

Surely a man who this has happened to ca report to the police under sex by deception laws and let them judged whether it has potential to proceed to prosecution?

you can do this already, suspect we don’t hear about it as they don’t

The burden of proof for demonstrating unequivocally that somebody didn’t know their sexual partner was married and that they wouldn’t have had sex with them if they had known would be onerously high. Some people do knowingly have relationships with married people, sometimes they even choose to conceive and continue pregnancies within affairs, so “it’s not likely someone would knowingly choose this” isn’t going to stand up to the burden.

Laws around marriage and bigamy I suppose were the ones that may traditionally protect from this sort of thing. They don’t prevent infidelity of course or stop someone lying. But if there is a legal commitment and a better knowledge of each others’ own lives and families before children then perhaps it’s less easy done in terms of having multiple families.

I don’t think what’s happened is rape but I do think it’s abusive and needs a category of its own.

And what about the women who knowingly falsify the paternity of their child? Should they be prosecuted as well?

Do you mean try and pass off a child as another man’s?
That’s virtually impossible these days I would imagine.
Have you known such cases?

Well it seems that Liverpool John Moores university has done some research which concludes that up to one 25 men are unknowingly raising childre that aren't there own

jeremy Kyle and Maury Povich weren’t on tv that long ago to be fair, it definitely still happens

so “it’s not likely someone would knowingly choose this” isn’t going to stand up to the burden.

Where was this written?

Anyway, I agree. Of course proof must be met in any case, whether onerous or not. It's how the legal system works.

I think criminalising infidelity would be awful. It’s a moral choice, not one to criminalise

i think its insulting to someone who was raped for her to suggest she was. She was cheated on, not nice, but certainly not rape.

As someone whose husband was supposed to be in charge of contraception and didn’t, resulting in a pregnancy I didn’t plan or ask for, I do see this as a bit different to what happened to me. I didn’t consent to pregnancy full stop and feel violated to this day.

This woman did want a baby but I can see where the feeling of betrayal and being deprived of agency around the circumstances can feel like they deserve some retribution. When does deception cross the line into criminal behaviour? It’s not rape per se but in the same family of sexual crime
imo.

It isnt a crime. It is only a crime if you pretend to sue a barrier but do not (stealthing). Tricking someone into pregnancy is not a crime. It is seen as naivety on the man's part.

I don’t obviously have the full details of the relationship but I’m not sure it’s automatically abusive just because he lied / she was deceived.

I don’t think anyone is saying this is ok behaviour. The man should be held accountable morally, financially (via custody payments and support) and his reputation will (rightly) suffer for that, which may also impact on his employment opportunities and future relationships. Not least any sort of relationship he has with his child in this situation.

But for me, to say this is criminal behaviour, rape, abuse - I think this just undermines the progress made in changing attitudes to these things and will water down how seriously we/society take them and reinforcing how unacceptable they are. The backlash and twisting of these concepts to broaden them in this way will be more detrimental to society (and let’s face it, mainly women) in the long run.

Adultery used to be a criminal offence until it was ceased for prosecution in 1970 under English law.

I know

It needs to be brought back, punishable by flogging
I’ll do it I volunteer

What did the law decide about the Spy Cops cases? Those were women deceived about whom they were living with.