To think cheating/lying does not remove consent

[FastLemonFinch]

I watched this video (damn Facebook ads) and was surprised at what Liv Nervo was saying -
https://www.facebook.com/GoodLawProject.org/videos/liv-nervo-speaks-out-against-the-man-who-tricked-her-into-pregnancy-shes-fightin/2018375549095913/

summary is Nervo was in a relationship with a man. Six months into pregnancy with him (they both were actively trying to conceive) she found out he had a whole other family and even an additional woman he in a separate relationship with, ie he was cheating and had either lied or not openly disclosed this (or both).

In Nervo’s opinion this equates to rape as she didn’t give her full consent (as if she had known he wasn’t single she wouldn’t have had sex with him) and also coercive pregnancy. She seems to be saying that rape consent laws need to be updated and a new offence of coercive pregnancy needs to be created.

Nervo doesn’t mention this in her video, but it appears this all came out because of a financial/custody dispute, and when the “Good Law Project” started representing her these additional allegations got thrown into the mix. https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/djs-ex-partner-escapes-costs-order-in-bitter-family-proceedings/5126217.article

Whilst I feel this man is morally reprehensible and certainly support his naming and shaming, and I’m sympathetic to Nervo, I personally don’t think what he did was criminal. Saying the law needs to change or is outdated to accommodate this scenario is both concerning to me in terms of what we think is criminal vs immoral behaviour, and also in this particular case I’d worry it risks undermining what is currently rape under the law, eg you don’t consent at the time. Very different to saying actually it wasn’t consensual months later because of new information you have found out.

and whilst pregnancy by coercion is awful, I don’t think that’s what happened here. To me this would be forcing someone to get pregnant (either via rape or lying about using a condom or tampering with contraception). if that’s currently not a crime then I would support changing the law to make that illegal.

I also think the so called “Good Law Project” is doing more harm than good in this case but that’s maybe a separate discussion!

I was just wondering if I out of touch and do others think Nervo is right to say what happened to her is rape/coercive pregnancy? AIBU to think whilst what he did was awful it’s not illegal?

I think there is something morally between consensual sex and rape. That has been violated in this case. If there is fundamental information that would change a person’s decision to engage in an intimate act, withholding that information means you did not obtain real consent.

in a perfect world we would be able to create laws that addressed this violation, but it is nearly impossible to prosecute. I don’t think we do anyone any favors by calling it rape. It is sex without true consent. It matters. It is wrong. It is still different.

I think we need to stop trying to turn every instance of immoral or unpleasant behaviour into a legal matter. Not everything needs a legal punishment/redress. Not all wronged people need someone locked up. That is not what our justice system is for, criminalising bad behaviour is pointless.

I think it is hugely undermining of actual rape and sexual assault. It’s pretty disgraceful behaviour on her part and GLS- I believe her ex-partner has behaved utterly reprehensibly, but not criminally. I wouldn’t have a problem with her naming and shaming him, being very critical etc- but what he has done is not rape, in my view, nor is it pregnancy by coercion. This is making a mockery of what those victims have actually suffered.

This would be one of those things that needs to be left in the “personal sphere”. It would also be extremely difficult to prove- how can you prove that you would not have had sex with someone who you knew to be in a relationship? Many people do, it’s not all that uncommon, and you can’t prove a hypothetical negative.

I also think this could have unintended consequences if it were to be changed. For instance, people accusing others of with-holding information that would have made them change their mind, whether it would have or not, for revenge/regret/embarrassment/deflect. And then you’ve got the nightmare of deciding what information it is reasonable to view as a decision-changing one and what is not, and could the other person have reasonably been expected to know that would have changed their sexual partners decision. I think it could also backfire on women- as it would have to apply both ways. For example, a man stating “she told me she was using contraception when she wasn’t/forgot it and if I had known that, then I would not have slept with her” could accuse her of rape/intercourse by deception.

Leave it where it is- in the private sphere.

The law regarding regarding prosecution for reckless or intentional transmission of HIV in England and Wales (Scotland is slightly different) has to cover the following:

You have sex with someone who didn’t know you had HIV.
You knew you had HIV at that time.
You understood how HIV is transmitted.
You had sex without a condom.
You transmitted HIV to that person.

So if someone with HIV is on medication with an undetectable viral load, which means it cannot be transmitted, legally there would be no requirement to tell anyone as they cannot pass it on.

I just don’t believe infidelity is a criminal offence. It has consequences, but not every bad thing that someone can do requires criminal retribution. Not everything one finds traumatic or upsetting is automatically a criminal matter. I think we have to be more sensible than this.

I too have been cheated on- it was a deeply unpleasant experience and I was very hurt. But I don’t feel that turning it into a criminal offence is absolutely unnecessary and does not serve anyone well. It makes the criminal justice system into something almost laughable, it’s just not serious- hurt feelings are now criminally prosecuted? I was also deeply hurt when a friend did something I found unacceptable (a betrayal of equal depth, in my view)- should I be able to have them charged with a criminal offence too? Where does it end, where is the line in the sand?

The line in the sand marriage, that’s the line in the sand. You don’t build your life with friends.
You don’t create lives with friends
🤷‍♀️
Not to say that once you’re in them, you can never leave but if you can leave, it’s not without consequence for the other party.
But actually, that’s not what we’re talking about. It’s the victim on the other side of it. Who didn’t have the legal protection of marriage.

We can't call a lie rape. We can't take a liar to court unless it has an impact on us, imagine how busy the courts would be otherwise! The harm in the original case is emotional (feeling tricked) and potentially financial (assuming they would have a shared financial future), but she would have been more protected in that situation if they had married. And he could have left her at any time and they would no longer have a shared future and finances.

Massive can of worms and it couldn’t feasibly be enshrined in law. Essentially she is claiming that you can’t consent to sex with a man who lies in any way about who he is. We all do this (men and women) when we first meet someone so essentially, most sex early in a relationship is ‘rape’ by her definition. We all fabricate a perfect version of ourselves to impress the other and generally that falters after the first few months so by default we’re all liars.

I still don’t think it’s a criminal matter. There are lots of ways to betray your partner that have nothing to do with infidelity and can be just as damaging emotionally- are we going to criminalise those too? After all, you might not have stayed in a relationship with that person, including having sex with them, had you known. You might not have chosen to have children.

If you are married, your redress is in ending the marriage if there has been a betrayal or breach of trust- not in having them thrown into jail.

Should someone knowingly having sex with someone in a relationship be charged with conspiracy /joint venture/aiding a criminal offence? If not, why not? I just think it is farcical. Some things that are wrong/immoral can be so without requiring them to be a criminal offence.

It did Impact on her and her child.
It doesn’t matter how busy the courts would be. Is that the excuse that we’re going to use for allowing 97% of rapists to never spend a day in jail, we’re just too busy to deal with it ?

The courts capacity will have to expand according to the laws of the land that we deemed worthy of enforcing
As we know who would be on the sharp end of this, it’ll never be enforced
Doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be

Most right minded people would consider him a rapist despicable behaviour. I hope you’re okay.

I'm okay now!

Believe me, i'm on my own there

Thank you ❤️

There’s an inherent difficulty with defining a “lie” in law when it comes to sexual encounters or regular life that isn’t prescribed contractually - in writing.
Anyone can feel they were deceived by someone doing or not doing, saying or not saying.. the problem is establishing that a “lie” was told (this is a starting point).

If I had consensual sex with Mr A who told me nothing about his life (but turns out he was married or whatever) there has been no lie that can be evidenced.

I could argue I asked him if he was married. He could have said “insert anything you like”, and then say “that was how it was on that date at that time” (we weren’t really together, staying for the children etc).

There is no way to prove to the required standard (beyond reasonable doubt in criminal case or “on the balance of probability “ in civil cases) that in his mind ( no access to that) he believed genuinely (hence no “fundamental dishonesty “ (the legal test in civil cases regarding dishonesty) on his behalf. He meant what he said.

Courts also can’t test “can’t remember what I said”. (Ask me how I know this!!)

Even if you got past the “was he lying intentionally” test you’d then have to show that the deception caused serious harm, and so on. There’s absolutely no way a description of feelings or “ just look at what happened “ washes with a court.

Law is clear for a good reason. Rape has a very specific definition. Sexual Assault has a very specific definition. Both criminal charges. Take the precise same details into civil court (I’ve tried!) and it gets watered down.. not up! The more you argue variation on a theme, the more the legal system shuts it down.

Maybe judges think not everyone can be in prison. Who knows.