AIBU to ask you to explain the 21+ like I’m 5?

[Donotfitin]

We’re moving to London in a few years and we’d like to time it for when our DS is due to start secondary school, we’d prefer he attends a grammar school.
He’s currently in Y1, so when would we have to move so he can take the 11+? It’s my understanding that’s he’d have to attend from Y6 in a primary within the catchment area. TIA!

OP, you can't just 'send him to a private one' - entry to those can be more competitive than the grammars! Especially if you're thinking Kings College Wimbledon. Please have a look at what is involved to get in there - it's quite insane really. Many of them are tutored from age 5.

There are some so-called 'softer options' down the A3 - like St John's Leatherhead or Reeds - but even these have about 5 applicants per place. And these are the 'back up schools.'

we do live in the UK! In one of the few counties that offer the IB for free :)

London is where my community and friends and much wanted lifestyle are.

and nothing wrong either a comprehensive, I just haven’t looked into them.

Perhaps if you say which grammars you are targeting, people can give more specific advice. Is it Wilson's in Sutton?

OP, you can't just 'send him to a private one' - entry to those can be more competitive than the grammars

I don’t think there are many privates harder to get into than the London grammars.

Latymer Upper? Westminster? Kings? St Paul's (Girls or Boys)? Godolphin and Latymer?

You seem to be prioritising your wants over what may suit your wider family.

I would put them in line with QEB, Tiffin & Wilson. Lots of the same “pool” of dc apply.

For instance, Latymer Upper has about 1,700 sitting 11 plus for 150 or so places.
The independent schools also have interview rounds or 'assessment days' to get through, it's not just one exam.

For instance, St Paul's Girls do some kind of CAT computerised test in the first instance. Then they have to be invited to sit the exam, based on that. The exams are a full day, during which time they also observe them in various group tasks. There is an English Paper, a Maths Paper and some other paper that could be literally anything. Then, after that, they will invite a proportion back for interviews a few weeks later, at which point, the chance of an offer is about 50/50.

Bear in mind that for these independent schools, it's a self-selecting cohort from the very outset, as all of these kids will be the most academically able in their primary/ prep schools. All will have excellent references and something 'more' to offer as well - eg. music or sport at a very high level. Prep heads won't write references for kids who have no chance at top independent schools - it makes them look incompetent as a 'feeder school.' So it's not just a case of 'might as well give it a go.' Students have to be put forward with a very strong reference. It's the same with all the top London Day Schools. They can cherry pick. They all have their own entry processes, which are all different and often change year to year as well, just to keep everyone on their toes. It's a proper palaver.

Most London "comprehensive" schools are part of Academy chains and have very specific methods of teaching and behaviour standards.
Michaela School is a comprehensive.
The Harris Schools are comprehensive.
Ark schools are comprehensive.
City of London (academy) schools are comprehensive.
Plus many more.....
These schools generally perform very well. Their methods aren't to everyone's taste but they are usually at the top of the league tables.
I think you need to research a bit more.

And another difference is, for a school like Wilson's, they have to live in catchment. For the independents, there are no catchments so they are basically up against anyone applying across the whole of London.

I think the only grammars with no catchment are Tiffin Girls and Boys - but these are in Kingston. I don't know about QEB or The Latymer Grammar School in North London - do these have catchments?

Wilson’s does not have a catchment.

Tiffin has a 10km inner priority area

QEB no catchment

DC apply from outside of London too.

You are looking at 3000 plus applications for QEB…

The Latymer School has a "one hour on public transport" catchment policy.
You need to apply by the start of June of year 5 and the entrance exams tend to be the first week in September of year 6

The problem in the London private sector now, is that even the schools that used to take the children who wouldn't get into the so-called 'top tier' Day Schools, have become highly academic and are publishing GCSE results of over 90% 9-7.

When my kids sat 11 plus for London independent schools, there used to be quite a gap between say Emanuel School and KCS. Now Emmanuel, which used to be more of a 'back up' option, is achieving GCSE results in the 90% range. Same with Francis Holland Sloane Square which tends to take the 'overspill' of very able girls who don't quite get in to SPGS, G&L or LU. Demand for what were once more 'mid tier' independent schools is such that they can now also cherry pick very able kids, many of whom are international but based in London for the schools, who easily get all 8s/9s. So as the perceived 'academic reputation' gaps between schools is increasingly being squeezed. competition ramps up, year on year (despite VAT on fees).

I agree with the other replies which have said that getting a place at a London grammar school or good private school is exceedingly difficult. You can't count on your son getting a place.
A much more reliable method would be to move to a property very close to a very good comprehensive school, then your house location will guarantee them a place.
To move somewhere on the hope you get a grammar place is a risky gamble.

The 3000 who sit for some of the more selective grammars is insane. However, these schools have a larger intake. Also, pretty much anyone can 'give it a go' for a grammar, whereas for St Paul's etc, it's more of a selected group from the outset. For instance, when mine were in a SW London prep, about half the year just gave the Tiffin schools a go, simply because they were there and they could. However, the head would pint blank refuse to write references or put a child forward for schools like St Paul's, G&L, Kings, LU etc if they knew they had no realistic chance. And without reference you couldn't apply. So in a Year group of 40, you might only have 2 or 3 boys going for say SPS or Kings and maybe one would get in, something like that.

Maybe, but considering I’ve been printing their needs that for the past 8 years, it’s time I get a break!

Please don’t set your heart on a grammar school. A bright and motivated kid will do very well in any decent school.

DC1 failed the 11+ for two different areas and also the entrance exam for a particular grammar school. They went to 11+ classes at school, so they did practice.

DC1 should have passed with flying colours because they are definitely at the top end of the grammar school ability range. They went to a comprehensive and got 4xAstar at A-Level (while also working part time and having several hobbies). They then went to a top uni and graduated with a 1st at masters level.

@allchange5 I can only talk about my experience of working in schools. As I said I would put the inline.

I was responding to the idea that you can just 'put' your kids into an independent school in the Wimbledon area, when schools like KCS, Dulwich College, Alleyns, etc are some of the most competitive in the U.K and there are no guarantees with any of them, even for the most academic children. I've done Oxbridge and the 11 plus for the various London Day Schools with 4 kids over the years and I can safely say that the school entries were far more of a hoo haa and more competitive.

I never claimed the top privates are easy to get into though. And I just corrected your post about some of the grammar catchments 🤷🏻‍♀️

Yes, I thought you had to live in Sutton for Wilson's, so apologies for that. I said I don't know about catchments for North London grammars as we don't live that way. I remember for the Tiffin schools, DC had friends who were tutored for years in VR and NVR - it was all cloak and daggers about the tutors and this type of thing. But it's the same with the independents - complicated by the fact that kids will be sitting maybe 5 or 6 schools which will all have different exams processes - some use VR, NVR, others think this is a waste of time and don't use it at all.

I thought your child was only 5/6 years old? And you never get a break from prioritising your children, that's part of being a parent

Will your job and your partners job transfer easily to London?

I do feel that so much of this feels really unrealistic - applying to a highly selective grammar without living locally and having access to best in person tutors. Assumption that if don't get in that will get a high level private - by the time you know the grammar outcomes, it will be too late to go for in demand privates.

I mean the older DC (and why we’ve stayed living over here).

My DH won’t have a transferable job at all, but he also barely graduated from secondary school, and isn’t really qualified in anything, so retail it is!