to admire religious fasting for its discipline and commitment?

[catchingup1]

I’ve been thinking about this lately, especially with Ramadan just gone and the dry fasting of 24 hours by Jews and Mormons.

I can't help feeling impressed. Not in a gushy way, just genuinely. Going without food and water for long periods, while still getting on with normal life, work, family etc takes a level of willpower and discipline that I don’t think most people have.

It’s not even just the physical side. It’s the restraint, the routine, the intention behind it. The fact that people are doing it for something bigger than themselves, not just for a diet or health trend.

It's not just people who’ve grown up with it. There are converts every year across different religions who are doing these fasts for the first time as adults. They haven’t had years to “get used to it” and are choosing to take it on anyway. It’s a conscious decision, not just habit.

Even for people who have done it since childhood, plenty still find it challenging every year. It’s not like it becomes effortless, they’re still choosing to stick to it day after day.

Then you read so much now about people struggling with “food noise”, constantly thinking about what to eat next, cravings, snacking, not being able to switch off from it. So the idea of deliberately stepping away from all of that, even for a set period and managing your impulses like that. It does make me respect it.

I’m not saying it makes anyone better than anyone else, just that I admire the self control, discipline and commitment involved.

I came across this about the benefits of dry fasting:

www.bcm.edu/news/dawn-to-dusk-dry-fasting-leads-to-health-benefits-in-the-study-of-immune-cells

Did you see the links I posted saying dry fasting has positive effects on the body?

It's not impressive causing yourself health issues and eating unhealthily because a work of fiction says you should. What it is, is stupid.

And yes, it is unhealthy despite the dubious links you keep bombarding people with.

Quite. And fasting for some can lead to mental illness, which can literally be deadly. My dd didn’t think she needed to eat to live. And it all started with skipping lunch.

Plenty of people do things that aren’t universally comfortable or appealing and don’t get this level of pushback.

If you're familiar with MN you'll know that's absolutely not true.

Also the whole “it sounds unpleasant so I don’t like it” isn’t really an argument, it’s just a personal reaction.

It is a personal opinion though and this is an opinion/discussion thread. People are free to speak about their own reaction.

The bit about being “cagey” is a bit weird. No one owes anyone a full breakdown of their beliefs or personal practices to have a discussion.

Your level of relentless zeal on this is beyond normal 'discussion' though. Repeated posting of links isn't discussion. You seem to have a vested interest and you can't blame posters for questioning why you won't reveal that.

"Honestly, a lot of this feels like people are uncomfortable with it"
You must surely have expected most people to feel uncomfortable with the concept of denying yourself water for hours on end.

People are allowed to be uncomfortable about it without justification, just as you are free to be evangelical without disclosure.

"That doesn’t make them pointless or something to be dismissed."
People are free to dismiss a concept at will.

Honestly, a lot of this feels like people are uncomfortable with it

And yet you keep on pushing it, ignoring and dismissing people's concerns about health, safety and the appropriate remit for an employer... and suggesting they have nefarious reasons for not enjoying your relentless arguing and pushing, up to and including accusing them of giving preferential treatment to Jews and, er, Mormons.

Because you're so inclusive.

Saying it’s “unhealthy” like it’s a settled fact is wrong. There’s a whole body of peer reviewed research looking specifically at this type of fasting, including studies in journals like The Lancet, European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, and Diabetes Research and Clinical Practice, and they don’t support the idea that it’s inherently harmful for healthy people.

Baylor College of Medicine:

Dr. Ayse Leyla Mindikoglu, corresponding author of the study and associate professor in the Margaret M. and Albert B. Alkek Department of Medicine, Section of Gastroenterology and Hepatology and the Michael E. DeBakey Department of Surgery, Division of Abdominal Transplantation at Baylor. “After fasting, our participants lost weight, and their blood pressure and insulin resistance improved.”

National Library of Medicine:

Results indicate that dry fasting is safe, has no negative effects on hydration, can improve fat metabolism and can cause transient phase shifts of circadian rhythms.

Here is more research:

M.e.A.-I.E. Faris et al.
Impact of diurnal intermittent fasting during Ramadan on inflammatory and oxidative stress markers in healthy people Journal: Journal of Nutrition & Intermediary Metabolism (2019)

Intermittent fasting during Ramadan attenuates proinflammatory cytokines and immune cells in healthy subject
Journal: Nutrition Research (2012)

H. Zouhal et al.
Effects of Ramadan intermittent fasting on inflammatory and biochemical biomarkers in males with obesity
Journal: Physiology & Behavior (2020)

M.A.E. Faris et al.
Effect of Ramadan diurnal fasting on visceral adiposity and serum adipokines in overweight and obese individuals
Journal: Diabetes Research and Clinical Practice (2019)

A.H. Abdalla et al.
Effect of Ramadan fasting on Moslem kidney transplant recipients
Journal: American Journal of Nephrology (1998)

S.H. Cheah et al.
Effects of fasting during Ramadan on urinary excretion in Malaysian Muslims
Journal: British Journal of Nutrition (1990)

J.B. Leiper et al.
Effects on health of fluid restriction during fasting in Ramadan
Journal: European Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2003)

R. Mushtaq et al.
The role of inflammatory markers following Ramadan fasting
Journal: Pakistan Journal of Medical Sciences (2019)

M. Unalacak et al.
Effects of Ramadan fasting on biochemical and hematological parameters and cytokines in healthy and obese individuals
Journal: Metabolic Syndrome and Related Disorders (2011)

S.O. Qasrawi et al.
The effect of intermittent fasting during Ramadan on sleep, sleepiness, cognitive function, and circadian rhythm
Journal: Sleep and Breathing (2017)

M. Nematy et al.
Effects of Ramadan fasting on cardiovascular risk factors
Journal: Nutrition Journal (2012)

No one is minimising how dangerous disordered eating can be. But it is silly to take one situation like that and use it to say that all forms of fasting are inherently harmful when the research shows the opposite.

There’s a big difference between an eating disorder, where someone believes they shouldn’t eat at all, and a structured, time-limited fast where people still eat daily and maintain nutrition. The two aren’t the same thing clinically or behaviourally.

You could just as easily say skipping a meal is dangerous because some people develop disordered eating, but we don’t treat every instance of not eating at a certain time as pathological.

For people who are vulnerable to eating disorders, yes, fasting of any kind might not be appropriate. But that’s about individual risk, not proof that the practice itself is universally unhealthy as the research shows.

There are plenty of studies showing it's unhealthy, particually regarding not drinking water for such an extended amount of time. Studies promoting it are usually based on the best case scenerio of water being available or people properly managing their food intakes, rather than what is the case for a lot of people who just binge eat mornings and evenings during the fast, which is far from healthy. Obviously.

And all this is ignoring the fact that many people around the world, particually young people and women, are being forced into this ridiculous practice. Do you admire that too?

You keep saying there are “plenty of studies” showing it’s unhealthy, but you haven’t actually shared any.

I’ve already posted multiple peer reviewed studies from established journals showing positive effects in healthy adults. If people were busy binge eating in the morning and evening (which is unhealthy I agree) why would dry fasting show positive health effects?

You say it is unhealthy - can you point to the actual evidence? Not just general claims, but specific studies.

Where are young people and women being forced?

I dunno, there are more impressive things. Seeing videos of massive feasts being prepared and consumed before sunrise and after sunset; contrast that to what many people do: go to work on a coffee, spend most of the day hungry, then go home to some rather miserable left overs. I think I'm a bit envious of the communal family feasting to be honest, which may be clouding my judgment.

You have my sympathy OP.

It must be so frustrating that despite all your efforts, posting all that shite fascinating research over and over again, not to mention your constant reminders to the majority of people who can't be arsed haven't got round to reading it to do so.

If only they did as they're told, they would see your point of view and would be swooning in admiration at the commitment and discipline of these superior beings you so admire.

If only...

Two of my colleagues were fasting and they were not at their best. In a job where you have to be.

If you so admire ramadam and fasting, maybe you should look into the requirements of it and enforcement in strict muslim countries - y'know, countries which are not exactly known to be great when it comes to human rights for women.

In Iran for example, women have been flogged for daring to have a drink of water during the day. Happy about that?

I mean, you can feel how you want but I don't feel in anywhere close to the same.

Oh it's not only Ramadan.

We have a carol concert and readings at Christmas by the Christians and people sharing how they abstain during Lent.

We have something to do with Henna tattoos on hands and food for another religion - I'm sorry I don't know which.

Literally almost every festival is celebrated. I only mentioned Ramadam due to the fasting.

We also do health or well-being topics - prostate cancer, menopause, visual impairment, diabetes,.

There is something for everyone but only if you want to join in or learn about others lives.

I often cycle through different types of fasting, not for any religious reasons though. I often do long stretches ( 2 or 3 months) of around 20/4 fasting daily so obviously fast for 20 hours then eat in a 4 hour window. . I also sometimes do around a month of 36/12 fasting. I always without fail feel better when I'm fasting and I don't get any food noise. While fasting I 'clean fast' so only have black unsweetened coffee, unsweetened green tea, water or unflavoured Fizzy water, no gum or anything like that either. It honestly feels liberating.

It would be a pretty miserable experience for most people though.
Not one sip of fluid between 7am and 7pm however thirsty you are.

Show me where women have been flogged for having a drink of water in the day. Is there happening everywhere? What has that got to do with fasting? So nobody should fast anywhere because women get flogged?

I have cited several studies that show that the dry fasting that Muslims, Mormons and Jews partake in have health benefits in peer reviewed journals.

😂

It is actually not a miserable experience. I have friends of many faiths and they are often more at peace when fasting. I am not saying this is the case for 100% of people of course just like anything in life.

There are alcoholics in my workplace who are not at their best where they should be either.

Oh come on now.

No it really is a miserable experience.

Anyone who has ever been thirsty and unable to have a drink will tell you that it is a miserable experience.

So fasting is like being an alcoholic, but you passionately want everyone to do it anyway and something something Jews something something endometriosis, something something inclusivity.

Might be miserable for you but it is not miserable for many people.