How many kids have left the school? (VAT)

[limeandwater]

It's been long enough now that I think we can make a reasonable conclusion on how bad it has hurt school.

To be honest at our school I only know 3 pupils that have left because of the VAT so not as bad as many feared.

Still heartbreaking for the kids though.

Only if you have a choice of great state schools for your own kids and your private options aren't that good. Means you live in a very nice=expensive area.

Otherwise no, not possible. This would require some very twisted brain to chose no the best option for your kids if you can go for the best one.

The thing is @nearlylovemyusername what is “best” is subjective.
If my kids had gone to a competitive London private school, they would have been average nobodies even with top grades and top music exams and sports. At their grammar school, they are amongst the best and socially accepted and happy and popular.
So why would I send them to the supposed most sort after to be made to feel average? Even if I could afford it.
So not seeing the point and added value in private education when you have decent state options, I think is quite common place. Plenty of people just think well they all do GCSEs everywhere so why spend 300k getting to the same place.

Absolutely. My child has significant sen and I tried to send her to a state school. It was an absolute disaster from the get go. She went for years and I tried everything with regular school meetings, often daily, fighting hard for an EHCP which took quite literally years. Nothing improved, and she was incredibly traumatised as she just cannot cope in a loud busy environment. I begged the council for help.

The state school advised me to withdraw her, and I am so grateful they did. She thrived in a tiny nurturing independent school. It was non selective and not academic at all, with parents from across the social spectrum, with many kids with send like my daughter who could not cope in state school.

@RhaenysRocks and @Aislyn - the fact that SEND was not excluded from paying VAT is unforgivable and offensive to me. It is the main reason I thought the policy was nasty from the start. Still do not understand the rationale for not excluding SEND from VAT payments.

What I am trying to say, is that there are many parents like me, who are left with no choice but to send their child to private school due to SEN. The state provision simply isn't there. I am not wealthy by any measure, but I had no choice as state provision could not accommodate my child.

Most shocking is that even special schools are not exempt from VAT. Of course, the councils are usually paying via EHCP, but some parents have no choice but to self fund, again due to councils neglecting their duties.

Then there’s the private tutoring that many of these parents pay for. That’s allowed too. That’s ok. Despite the fact many people can’t afford private tutors, it’s OK for them because they Can afford it.

Yes I’ve never understood that.
The mention of private schools seems to be an enjoyable opportunity for some people to have a go at the children who go to them. ‘OMG privately educated children are entitled, arrogant, snobbish etc. I would never let my little darling get contaminated mixing with Tarquin and co”

Historically, most private schools admitted pupils on academic ability. I recall pupils being forced to leave because their results were too low (yes that's terrible)

But now, many private schools are scrabbling to fill places and they accept anyone who can afford to pay. And that dilutes the academic standard

The academic results at our local private school are no better than the local state school. The sports provision is a little better but doesn't justify the school fees. The school trips are good but v expensive and we can replicate these ourselves far cheaper. We could have afforded private but didn't feel it offered good value for money

But mostly, all school rolls are falling due to falling pupil numbers. This was predicted years ago

I didn’t choose private school for the academics. I chose it because having my kids in a private primary makes my life easier — they do extracurricular sports / swimming / instruments & offer aftercare, holiday clubs and breakfast care. So the kids, for not much more than a full-time nursery, can have all their activities in once place.

For academics our focus is on reading, building concentration, and building habits. For this I use external sports, we do art at home, and I dip into Kumon as required.

Your post just proves my point - you have a grammar option which is best for your kids. If you only had some sinking state schools available vs decent private, would you still chose state out of principle?

Both of those scenarios would help me out financially but I don’t think they will happen, sadly.

I don’t really have a problem with parents claiming they choose schools out of principle, I have a problem with them supporting limiting other parent’s education choices ‘out of principle’.

Its perfectly possible if you live in an expensive area with great state schools and your kids at NT / popular / sporty / confident / academically sound. Sadly that is very often not the case hence the need for alternatives which the state system seems unable to provide.

I know a lot of families like this. They are ‘opposed’ to private schools but then buy 2m+ houses in leafy villages that are conveniently in ultra-strict catchments to several amazing state primary and secondary schools. Several of these ‘state’ schools have swimming pools, sports ground, state of the art science / tech labs, all funded by parents. I know of one school whose entire computer lab was funded by a well known bank because a senior exec sent his kids there. They had the latest macbooks & staff from their IT department would volunteer to run coding workshops. Yet 2 miles down the road was a primary school in a broader catchment that was ‘needs improvement’ and had to sell off land to make enough money to renovate it’s buildings.

This is not true in my area. Pre the abolition of the local grammar schools, the private and public schools only got the 11+ failures and didn't come close to the excellent academic results of the grammars. Once the grammars were gone at the end of the 1970s, the independent schools started to improve their results and became more competitive, and their academic reputation completely changed over the next 20 years.

“Your post just proves my point - you have a grammar option which is best for your kids. If you only had some sinking state schools available vs decent private, would you still chose state out of principle?“

@nearlylovemyusername - well I live in London so there are no “sink” options and there is always a way to get into a good state school somehow. Similar with the NHS, you can change GPs, keep going back, try a different angle etc.
And I would have never sent my kids to an ultra “strict” option either. Don’t agree with that on principle.
I am not at all opposed to private education, I have said this many times. Each to their own. However, personally I would not choose it. For a start, I think I would find it awkward with teachers and being a customer etc. Yes my DC got used to help the teachers out in state primary, but then there is some gratitude from staff towards parents who help out, do the homework, are involved. And I enjoy being valued by the teaching staff.
I think even in what you would have called a sink option, as long as there were sets, the staff would have treated my kids and us well.

The problem with talking about “the grammar option” is that everyone assumes their child will get into the grammar school. Nobody seems to consider the possibility of their child going to “the other” school. The one that by definition has no top set and a high % of disadvantaged, lower ability and SEND children.

@CurlewKate in privileged areas that are all grammar, like eg Tunbridge Wells or Sevenoaks, the supposed “other” school is absolutely fine these days. There are top sets, there is a grammar stream etc etc - it all essentially boils down to children from advantaged homes in nice areas do well - and by that I mean, reach their potential.

I think Labour will come after the remaining grammars again anyway.

“I think Labour will come after the remaining grammars again anyway.”

I do not think so as in the league tables, there are lots of grammar schools competing right at the top with private schools. And if they remove selection, then private schools will dominate the top entirely. And Labour won’t like that.

It’s not like that in Kent-which I don’t think is the biggest selective LEA.

Sevenoaks and Tunbridge Wells are West Kent. Further down into Kent, you have deprivation. It is has nothing to do with the grammar system per se.
Bucks and West Kent that are both grammar areas have some of the highest national attainment levels.

That was also the case when they attempted to shut them down in the 70s. I don’t think you can really expect Labour to be rational.

@Lameelephant - they would not “shut” down schools though, all that could happen is making selection at 11 plus going forward illegal and I think would have to be discussed in Parliament. A lot of the grammar areas like Kent Bucks etc are more Con strongholds, I really do not think it would be easy to do. Also with these May elections looming and likely massive defeats, seems highly unlikely at this point. Bucks for example gets a lot of rich people moving there for the grammars. If you got rid of selection, it may be that house prices would crash. There are plenty of people whose kids do not get into grammars, but many will be concerned about the value of their homes.

If I couldn’t keep my children in private school, I wouldn’t choose a state school if other options were available. The days when education was simply a choice between state or private are long gone. I have friends who homeschool and have had great experiences, blending online schools, private tutors, and extracurriculars—it’s like school, but with its own unique twists. I’ve seen plenty of articles about the growth of homeschooling and the expansion of its communities. It’s definitely becoming more popular and accepted, though I think it works best for children who naturally fit that style—it’s not for everyone. People often wonder what my friends do for work if they homeschool, assuming they can’t have jobs. But with remote and hybrid work, it’s much easier now. Many let their children work independently on their computers alongside private tutors. The cost of online school, tutors, and activities depends on each family’s budget and preferences. For those who just want the essentials, it’s so much cheaper than private school that it’s hardly worth comparing, and even for those who go all out, it can still cost less than private schools.