Teacher gave us SNAP-IV form out of the blue - AIBU?

[primmy713]

I have a child in year 5, and since she was little, we have always been told by teachers that she often day dreams in class. We are very well aware, and sometimes getting her to sit and start her schoolwork can take a few prompts, but she always completes it and does very well. Her test scores over the past few years have been very good, and she enjoys school a lot. She's quite social, and like any girl her age chats to her friends (and sometimes in class!), but other than that we've always been told she's a good, kind and respectful student, and her tests scores prove the same.

She has a teacher this year who I always thought was just OK. But we never complain, we just get on with it. At our first parent teacher conference this year, she complained how our daughter fidgets in class and struggles to focus. We worked really hard with her over the past month, and now she's nailing all her subjects and one of the top performers in her class.

Last week during our parent teacher meeting, her teacher presented us a SNAP-IV form and said she believes our daughter suffers from ADHD and can't sit in her seat. She said that she often will get up in a lesson to sharpen her pencil, and it takes a few prompts to get her to start her school work, and somehow she always manages to finish them.

She never shared her answers for the form, but my husband and I filled one out ourselves and met with the SEND coordinator who reviewed our two forms, and said that the teacher had 18 marks against her vs our 7, so she probably wouldn't quality for ADHD support, but all agreed that her taking her time to start assignments was a red flag. She asked about her reading ability, and I explained that she's an avid bookworm who can read fluently. Her last set of state test scores show reading at 125 and grammar at 121.

So I am really not sure what to do with this information, besides explaining to my daughter to take school more seriously by not leaving your chair during lessons, and disrupting the teacher by talking to classmates etc. I am a bit angry and annoyed, why did she wait to share this? Is this normal behaviour to spring this on a parent with a SNAP IV form?

He told me when he tried to take them daily they numbed him and his mind, so he just uses them to study as they helped him to focus and memorise things better.
Another friend of mine's child is on it, and they just help him better behave in his classroom.

The goal shouldn't be to stop fidgeting OP, it should be to find a way to do it that is acceptable. Fidgeting is good for people with ADHD, it actually helps us concentrate.
With inattentive ADHD, which if your daughter has it that would probably be the one, the hyperactivity is internal. There is less visual hyperactivity but some fidgeting still exists. If you try to get her to stop fidgeting, all that energy she can use to focus on learning will be diverted to stop fidgeting, mask and act acceptable.

You are very keen to point out your child's academic achievements, but just because she is academically able, doesn't mean that she isn't neuro-divergent. It may be that her needs are becoming more apparent as she gets older and school life becomes more complex, or that she is masking and heading towards burnout. Or perhaps, her behaviour was more developmentally appropriate when she was younger and more in line with her peers, but is becoming more apparent as she gets older.

Girls tend to be under-diagnosed so I think you should take the teacher's concerns seriously. The fact that she has proactively bothered to explore this when so many parents are banging their head against a brick wall trying to get schools to take their concerns seriously, to me suggests something may be going on.

Most 9 and 10 year olds don’t need a list from their parents reminding them to brush their teeth and get dressed. They might need a verbal nag “ get dressed NOW we are leaving for grannies in ten minutes”, but a list!

Remember your child is working in a class of up to 30 other children, no teacher has the time to verbally remind every child to start a task and keep on track with it. The teacher is trying to ensure that your child learns strategies which will support her learning ( and her life and work) in future years. You won’t always be standing behind her reminding her to brush her teeth

Needing to study "all night" is a bit of a red flag for not having managed sustained steady rates of study at earlier stages.

I was also a bright but daydreaming girl who read voraciously and scored extremely well on tests - until scoring well on tests started to depend on sustained focus (because the work got more difficult) and on time management that I couldn't do. I was diagnosed with inattentive ADHD as an adult.

I wouldn't worry about formal assessments in your position but I would keep a record of everything the teacher said and the teacher's questionnaire scores, as if your daughter starts to struggle later due to attention issues (when the work gets more difficult and needs sustained focus), then that evidence will be really valuable. I would otherwise just keep an eye on things.

You will probably pick this up as you’re planning to do some reading, but fidgeting is natural and actually regulating for someone with ADHD, and to try and reduce it is more likely to cause anxiety or other loss of function.

Or you might have meant redirect - kids with adhd can use fidget toys, have movement breaks, different chairs or attachments to their chairs…

I read the first two paragraphs and immediately thought - possible inattentive ADHD. Then you say you already have ADHD in the family - and ND conditions tend to run in families - but you still can't believe that a teacher suggested she could have ADHD?

What the medication did for your brother was that is allowed him to focus like a person without ADHD. He might have chosen to cram all night - perhaps due to poor executive functioning - but that's not what the meds were about. The SEND coordinator was probably just giving general examples of the uses of getting a diagnosis, I doubt she was saying your daughter personally needed to be medicated to be able to read a book.

One thing that is sounds could be useful to her is a prompt in exams, you say she needs prompting to start her work and to continue it if she has a break and that is what a prompt will be able to do in an exam - or if she starts day dreaming. Without a prompt in an exam if she ends up getting distracted and day dreaming for half of it then no one will do anything.

I agree with a PP that the fidgeting is important, that is why she might need a break in an exam to be able to go out and move a bit. Blue tack in her pocket might be appropriate in lessons but I would get exam officer approval for exams.

She might also need to be in a small room to cut down on distractions - not sure if that is applicable or not. I would also request that she is sat at the front of her class is she struggles with day dreaming/filtering out distractions because as they get towards GCSE years even clever kids cannot get away with missing half the input as I found with DS.

This whole thing really isn't out of the blue, you have a brother with ADHD so it should already have been in your mind as a possibility, and it sounds like teachers have been commenting on it for years. They might not think it's 'bad enough' for a diagnosis but often what that means in a classroom situation is that her behaviour is not 'bad enough'. A diagnosis is not about bad behaviour though.

She was moved towards the front of the class so the teacher could act as a prompt when her mind wandered. Sitting by the window was a no no as she would be distracted by pretty much anything going on outside. She will qualify for additional time in exams and breaks if required (which in her case they will be). Also don't assume that your daughter will continue as she is currently. My daughter did well at Primary School and is now in Year 9 and a school non attender.
It doesn't hurt to be aware of potential needs, if not for now, then in the future.

As soon as I started reading your thread it was clear to me that your DD is showing signs of ADHD. Like others have said, I’m not sure why you’re so angry. You seem to equate ADHD with poor test results, which isn’t what this is all about. It’s about how your DDs behaviour is impacting her own ability to perform at her best and the disruption she’s causing to other students around her.

if I was in your position I’d be taking any support that was being offered. Also, you do realise that your DD behaves differently when you’re not around? So there should be no surprise that the teachers scores were different to yours.

Your DD will soon be going to secondary school where it can become really tough for ADHD kids. Getting strategies in place now will help her and you navigate the difficult teenage years which are even more difficult for SEND kids.

You are extraordinarily lucky and should be thanking that teacher. What a wonderful, proactive teacher she is. Many parents have to fight tooth and nail to even be considered for a diagnosis for their dc, let alone get support for their child. In your position and having a DS with adhd myself and knowing what I know, I would be thanking her and working with her to help my dc.

Girls can present differently to boys and sometimes it's not until Secondary that things become clearer. Hormones can also have an impact. There is ADHD in the family so not necessarily a stretch that your DD may also.

I think this is what makes it so difficult; like I said, you sound like a caring and involved parent and it’s obvious you pay attention to how she’s doing when she’s at home. The important bit: it isn’t about how she focuses on things she WANTS to do. It’s about how she focuses on things she NEEDS to do. Because trust me, I would read books I liked and watch TV endlessly with no problems. But then when I had a book that was assigned for school… it felt like trudging through mud, even though I could read for pleasure all day long.

VERY classic example: I failed tests in English (my grandparents were SHOCKED because I’m such an avid reader) because I didn’t read Lord of the Rings when it was assigned and couldn’t answer quiz questions like, “What was the name of Frodo’s pony?” Three years later, I got ill at 17 and was stuck at home, I read LOTR in about two days and it’s now one of my favourite series of books.

I think it might help you to think of it as ADD that your daughter might have and not ADHD, because the focus is too often on the hyperactivity, which girls do not display nearly as much as boys, versus the “attention deficit” which is often what I see in girls described as “daydreamers,” or when someone says, “But they can focus easily on X!” This will allow her to access the support she might need (extra time for exams, IF she needs it - just knowing that she has it in case she needs it may help her on exams). This may actually be a lot of help to you, because it will empower you to get her help without medication.

The problem with medication is this: it’s designed to treat ADHD, not ADD. It’s literally methamphetamine salts, which are very useful when someone has ADHD, because it works the “opposite” way it would work in someone with normal brain chemistry - instead of making them hyperactive, it soothes the hyperactivity. But if she’s only got some slight deficits in attention, then medication shouldn’t be recommended (though yes! Some will still recommend it) - she’d be like someone taking methamphetamine salts who didn’t need them, and I think you might notice a lot more hyperactivity. I would say maybe 85% of the people I know who have ADD and tried medication soon stopped it. Everyone I know who has genuine ADHD, it’s helped. So I think it’s really tough to make that decision.

And it sounds like your SEND coordinator may not be the right person. Maybe, if possible, get your daughter assessed privately with the understanding that you suspect ADD but feel pushed to medicate for ADHD, and need some guidance based on their assessment.

Also, I’m aware that some sources use ADD and ADHD interchangeably, or believe all ADD is actually ADHD, but I and the lived experience of my group of friends who have shared some of their medical history with me (so maybe 50 people? A very small sample, but these are all people in their late 30s to early 40s so have the advantage of time) show to me at least that ADD and ADHD can be very different and need to be treated differently.

We are expecting children to sit and focus for long periods of time. We know very clearly from research this is not right and unfortunately sometimes children who don’t sit and focus for long periods of time, are labelled. If it is not having an impact on her life, I would just leave it as it is.

one of the things that jumped out at me, is she can’t access adhd support as you’ve only marked her as 7? There is obviously unmet need so how are they going to support?

The transition to secondary is brutal for lots of ND kids, my advice is to get on it now. Trial and error of what works, she doesn’t need a diagnosis to access support.

Primary schools are really bad at offering support and will Mostly deny unless a child is really disruptive, your teacher will have come across 100’s of kids… it’s unlikely she is wrong. I missed loads of signs my oldest was ND as she was my first and it was ‘normal’ to me.

Both my ADHD kids are smart. There brains are wired differently, they have different needs, process info in different ways. One can sit quietly, (but she isn’t listening after 2 mins) and one cannot…

A few things based on your GP visit.

GPs are actively refusing ADHD assessment for almost all children now. They refused our DC. Yet our child ended up with a 99% ADHD profile. A blind man on a galloping horse could have spotted their ADHD 😂. (This in addition to being on the 97 percentile for intelligence. So ADHD definitely does not = dim.)

A diagnosis does not mean you HAVE to medicate. It means that if in the future you want provision made for your child (extra exam time, a quieter less disruptive setting, additional support OR possibly medication) you already have the diagnosis to back it up. The whole process takes ages, so doing in urgency/time of need won't work.

I really don't understand your anger at a teacher flagging an issue. MOST parents of children with a suspected SEN would welcome the vigilance of the teacher. She isn't inventing an issue where there isn't one. She's just reporting what she sees. Which is much better than most schools do.

Yes, I'm aware some teachers suit our children better than others. Our DC's teacher last year understood our DC beautifully. This year's teacher doesn't. It's how it is.

We are definitely up for seeing how we can help, but as the SEND teacher told us - because she hasn't scored enough points for an assesment based on the teachers results and our results- there's not much we can do unless we go private. And our GP said the same, she wouldn't put her forward for more assesments either.

You clearly don't want her to have a diagnosis though, so you are going to mark as low as possible.

You emphasise a lot in you post about how academically able you daughter is. Being neurodivergent doesn’t mean you are not bright or struggle academically. I’m a teacher and some of the cleverest pupils I’ve taught have been autistic or have ADHD.

It sounds like the teacher is trying to help your daughter, she’s not saying she isn’t clever. Perhaps you have misconceptions around neurodivergence. It isn’t a negative thing.

As a late diagnosed adult with adhd I’d really encourage you to persue a full assessment for your daughter, even if you feel it will come back as she doesn’t have it.
As others have said it’s incredibly hard to get referred and waiting lists are crazy long. It’s much better to get in as early as possible if there’s a chance she does have adhd.
If you have adhd elsewhere in your family that will increase the chances that she does have it too - after all it’s genetic.
You may find that at this age your dd can cope/mask enough, but as her workload increases and demands for independence grow as she gets through teenage years and into adulthood she may really struggle more.
Dont be scared of potential medication too, it’s literally just boosting the chemicals that are lacking, but could be life changing for her.

"Her past teachers who told us sometimes she would day dream a bit, I would flat out ask them if they though[t] she had ADHD and they said no."

So you didn't ask this teacher then and are getting antsy when she has made the suggestion proactively? That makes zero sense. I think you have a bee in your bonnet about this teacher and it could be to the detriment of your daughter.

Imagine the teacher hadn't flagged it up. Fast forward 10 years and your daughter gets diagnosed with ADHD. Think of the trouble this teacher could've saved your child and say thank you to her for trying to help your child.

I would say some of the brightest people I’ve known, and some of the most creative, have been neurodivergent in one way or another (and some were totally neurotypical).

I think OP may be struggling because the people she’s talked to so far have all treated this like 1. a problem with her daughter and 2. one that needs to be solved with medication. That would make a lot of parents defensive, I would think? And like many of us, OP has probably seen some of the “bad press” about ADHD, which does often make it look like it’s tied to intelligence, when it isn’t at all.

I hope some of the comments have helped you, @primmy713 , because of course we would all get defensive if someone said something was “wrong” with our child, and I feel like maybe I’m reading this wrong, but OP is reacting to that “it’s wrong! Your daughter is broken! She needs meds!” vibe, and not the actual idea of ADD or ADHD, that she’s getting from the teacher (perhaps this negativity is part of why OP isn’t a fan of this teacher?) and SEND coordinator. I mean, sure, I don’t recommend this “ADHD is a superpower” horseshit, BUT I also could not disagree more that it means someone is “broken” or “less than.” I could be wrong and totally reaching here, though.

Very, very best of luck navigating this, OP. If you have any questions about how my ADD manifested at your daughter’s age, please PM me.

OP I can see why you’re upset, but equally I think you should be pleased that issues are being looked at early. The waiting list for ADHD assessment is several years. If she was referred now, she’ll probably be in year 9 when her appointment comes through. By that time, if her problems have all resolved with maturity, you can cancel the appointment. And if not, you can have the assessment. And even if she’s given a diagnosis of ADHD, there’s no obligation to have medication. Trust me, there are many kids embarking on GCSE courses and struggling with focus, for whom it is too late to get a diagnosis.

From the information you have put in your subsequent posts OP, you could be describing me as a child. I was a very avid reader outside of school, but less so i. I was also categorised as a naughty child as I was very high energy and talked a lot. I was put on a 'naughty row' at school which was all boys and i was the only girl, I got teased a lot because of it. It was a real stigma which stayed with me for a very long time. I was diagnosed with ADHD at 48, and not having a diagnosis (it didnt really exist back then) has caused issues, mainly relationship and social anxiety, but i can look back and see I wasnt naughty, but the experience made me very fearful of failure and mistrustful of people. I was a high functioning child, and I have a high level role now, but felt 'different' and masked that for a very long time as an adult sure to early experiences. It sounds like the teacher handled it a bit clumsily, however having a diagnosis is a good thing. If it turns out she isn't ADHD, then you can go back to the school on learning points for the future. If she is though, it may be there are no adaptions needed now, but will be in the future. Above all, it is helpful to know you need ways to 'control' your ADHD, which for me is not medication, but structure and support.

I don’t think you’re unjustified to feel as you do.. the scores are good and you know her. I’d probably have a meeting with the teacher to discuss further. I don’t think not being able to sit in a seat as a child means you have ADHD…I think it’s a bit insane the teacher has gone with ADHD or a diagnosis etc for the reasons you’ve mentioned. I’d probably put in place a reward system for her concentration/ reports etc.

I have ADHD. It presents with procrastination followed by periods of intense deep thinking. At uni I often completed 10-20k word assignments the night before and got close to 100%. I never struggled with academics only with procrastination & it fucked up my work and personal life until I was diagnosed through work.

Keep an open mind.