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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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6
Nosea · 15/03/2026 23:21

The EU is and should be an ally. We can collaborate closely. People wanting to move either way should get an appropriate visa for working and living. Keep it visa free and easy for short stays and holidays

CoolFineDoneWicked · 15/03/2026 23:23

SevenYellowHammers · 15/03/2026 23:13

To be fair to him, although I don’t know why I want to be fair to him, nobody seriously thought the referendum would go the way it did and there was no plan. This is evidenced by the way NI and Gibraltar hadn’t been considered at all. Cameron put the referendum on to shut the Euro skeptics up and stop the debate . The forecasts for what might happen were foggy either way. I nearly voted leave based on the leftxit argument that an almighty recession was heading the EUs way and we needed to distance ourselves. In the end, I couldn’t bear to align with Farage et al and voted remain.

To me, what was astonishing was that in the heart of the Eurosceptic movement there was no plan, no idea whatsoever for how it would work. And it's not like they didn't have time to come up with anything - the Eurosceptics have been around since Maastricht.

I remember listening to an interview with a barrister who had been a Eurosceptic Tory going way back to the early 90s, and after the Brexit vote had switched sides (trying to remember his name, he used to do the rounds on the political podcasts around 2016-2019, David something). Anyway, he said that in all the meetings, discussions, party conferences in all those decades of the movement, no-one ever thought about Northern Ireland. Never came up. Just didn't even cross their minds how to deal with it, they were so wrapped up in their pettifogging whinges about the EU.

David Cameron hoped to shut these idiots up once and for all with the referendum, but he was a lazy fool.

catinateacup · 15/03/2026 23:38

Nosea · 15/03/2026 23:18

I mean most surveys say 75-80% of Brits can't speak a second language.

Why were workers from the EU more special than workers from America, Australia, India or Nigeria? Brexit made everyone else equal if they wanted to work here. I have a Chinese friend who said he got his job in the UK thanks to Brexit and to being on an equal footing to Europeans in the job application process. High-skill, high-pay service sectors continued to draw non-EU skilled labour after Brexit. The Boriswave was a political choice he made anyway to depress wages. We can train our own people, what more do you want? We have school, apprenticeships, degree apprenticeships and an increasing number of people in higher education. We don't need to import medical staff to fill vacancies where we can have our own medical graduates do it. We should never have to rely on immigration forever and we should change things here if they aren't working.

You can collaborate on science funding without being in the EU. We had the Turing scheme instead.. My child's uni still had exchanges to the EU. But also has exchanges to the USA and China. Even Canada, Singapore and Japan.

Most of those countries have special Commonwealth migration arrangements with the U.K. anyway. They were able to have this when we were in the EU, too.

It has been our governments’ policy not to train our own medical graduate and employ them for decades and decades (across both left and right wing parties). Places on medicine courses are subject to quotas. We deliberately under-train our workers so that we can fill jobs from workers trained elsewhere. We also under-train our young people in general, loading them up with debt for tertiary education and training and instead importing workers from elsewhere to fill skills gaps.

If you want to change this: great! Just know that is not remotely what Reform want to do. That would require massive expansion, funding and renationalisation of higher and vocational education, and Reform voters, who uniformly parrot the “too many graduates / Tony Blair fifty percent” bollocks, very especially don’t want that.

In fact, you can’t say in one breath that you want to open up high skill jobs to China and the US; and then in the next claim we should be training our own kids instead. Those two things are not really compatible with each other (and Brexiteers/Reformers don’t really want to pay for educating anyone. They most particularly do not want to pay more tax so that we can expand universities and vocational training in order to educate British kids to a higher skill level).

And why do you think so few Britons speak another language? First, because it’s not valued in our society; but recently, more tellingly, because Michael Gove (a Brexiter) included in his reforms to the school curriculum measures explicitly to downgrade languages in state schools. As a result, hardly any schools teach languages now; and since 2010 the number of children studying two languages at school, something that was routine even in comprehensives when I was at school, is now a vanishingly tiny proportion of the cohort.

catinateacup · 15/03/2026 23:46

Blueharmonica · 15/03/2026 23:20

Oh dear, this is going to be a bit of shock for you;
The parliament moves once a month: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/faq/3/why-does-parliament-move-between-brussels-and-strasbourg

They stopped vaccines several times, conducted raids and threatened to close the Irish border ;https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/17/eu-threatens-to-halt-covid-vaccine-exports-to-uk-unless-it-gets-fair-share

https://www.euronews.com/2021/03/21/covid-19-vaccines-uk-says-world-is-watching-eu-over-threat-to-ban-exports

Silly and ignorant posts are why we lost the Brexit debate.

You completely mistake the point. Of course I know about the parliaments: I did a stage in Brussels (and Strasbourg).I can pretty much guarantee that I know more about EU politics than you will ever be willing to find out. What you’re completely missing is that this isn’t some kind of “bureaucratic red tape waste blah blah” as put about by Brexit nuts. If you think so, you just prove you don’t really know anything about the point or workings of the EU; only what you’ve been told. Do you know WHY the parliaments move? Have you ever wondered why nobody seemed bothered about that before the Murdoch/Farage right cooked up this box-fresh whinge in about 2014? Do you know why nobody seemed bothered before then? Or why other EU countries aren’t that bothered either? Maybe try finding out.

You also don’t pay for it. British voters got back more than they ever paid to the EU in economic and social benefits (as we are all finding out, now our economy is slowly sliding down the toilet).

Plus - and I hate to tell you - basing your knowledge of politics on a couple of news articles isn’t very sensible. Have you actually read what these articles you’ve linked to actually say?

Nosea · 16/03/2026 00:07

catinateacup · 15/03/2026 23:38

Most of those countries have special Commonwealth migration arrangements with the U.K. anyway. They were able to have this when we were in the EU, too.

It has been our governments’ policy not to train our own medical graduate and employ them for decades and decades (across both left and right wing parties). Places on medicine courses are subject to quotas. We deliberately under-train our workers so that we can fill jobs from workers trained elsewhere. We also under-train our young people in general, loading them up with debt for tertiary education and training and instead importing workers from elsewhere to fill skills gaps.

If you want to change this: great! Just know that is not remotely what Reform want to do. That would require massive expansion, funding and renationalisation of higher and vocational education, and Reform voters, who uniformly parrot the “too many graduates / Tony Blair fifty percent” bollocks, very especially don’t want that.

In fact, you can’t say in one breath that you want to open up high skill jobs to China and the US; and then in the next claim we should be training our own kids instead. Those two things are not really compatible with each other (and Brexiteers/Reformers don’t really want to pay for educating anyone. They most particularly do not want to pay more tax so that we can expand universities and vocational training in order to educate British kids to a higher skill level).

And why do you think so few Britons speak another language? First, because it’s not valued in our society; but recently, more tellingly, because Michael Gove (a Brexiter) included in his reforms to the school curriculum measures explicitly to downgrade languages in state schools. As a result, hardly any schools teach languages now; and since 2010 the number of children studying two languages at school, something that was routine even in comprehensives when I was at school, is now a vanishingly tiny proportion of the cohort.

We should use our own people first and as a last resort have limited immigration. And when we do everyone is treated fairly. No special privilege for being french over being from another nation.

They have some plans on education and training. We'll see how well they materialise.

They say though that there should be very limited, tightly controlled immigration only for critical skills shortages.

All my grammar school educated children received As in their languages GCSE. One did a language to A-level and got an A. Another did Latin GCSE as well and did very well in it.

Nosea · 16/03/2026 00:08

You can agree with some brexiteers on some things and disagree with them on another.

catinateacup · 16/03/2026 00:20

Nosea · 16/03/2026 00:07

We should use our own people first and as a last resort have limited immigration. And when we do everyone is treated fairly. No special privilege for being french over being from another nation.

They have some plans on education and training. We'll see how well they materialise.

They say though that there should be very limited, tightly controlled immigration only for critical skills shortages.

All my grammar school educated children received As in their languages GCSE. One did a language to A-level and got an A. Another did Latin GCSE as well and did very well in it.

Sounds great. How does that fit in with trade and defence? How do you form trade and defence alliances if you don’t have reciprocal agreements about labour and regulation? Do you say, “Hey, we’d quite like to team up with your countries to trade goods at favourable rates; and share defence information and peace agreements and all that nice stuff; but what we don’t want is to give your workers any favourable movement, or harmonise our regulatory oversight with yours, or contribute to any shared democratic and cultural initiatives. In fact, we’d like to only import your goods and workers on equal terms with goods and workers from countries who are your political enemies. We’d like your cooperation with our political and trade goals, but we don’t want to make any concessions to yours.”

See how far you get. Perhaps we begin to see why Farage was such a resounding failure as an EU politician…?

HelloVoid · 16/03/2026 00:47

Exactly why I am 3 months into waiting for my Irish citizenship through descent to be approved, hopefully by this time next year I will have my Irish passport. I feel very fortunate to be able to do that.

Giraffehaver · 16/03/2026 01:27

I'm off to Wales as soon as we're in a position to move

Plasticdreams · 16/03/2026 04:33

24kPalamino · 15/03/2026 21:30

Hello @Czerwonitz

I’d love to know what Labour are doing, that is so beneficial to me, I should not want to vote Reform?

I am a higher earner. Practicing Roman Catholic. One adult child. Diesel driver. Married female, who believes in biology, and has private heath care. And spends a significant amount of the year in America, with a real love of the Deep South.

On the other hand, Reform have aspirational policies to raise the lower and higher tax free personal allowance; remove inheritance tax on estates worth less than 2 million (my parents is worth 1.6 million); I also want to leave all my money to my child; and Reform wish to lower immigration and overall welfare bill.

I realise the argument will be that I’m selfish and it’s not just about me; I should morally want to support many other people as well as my own family; I should want to prop up a nice society for everyone to live in…but the reality is I loathe working and would like to not have to work. Yet I have to work because I have things to pay for and a standard of living to try to maintain and frankly, I’m pissed at having to maintain other people’s standard of living too. Especially when Labour just keep growing the welfare bill through low skill immigration and failure to force people into work and I see no improvement in society as a whole; just continuous decay including a crappy NHS; pothole filled roads; bins now collected every three weeks; rubbish everywhere; a breakdown in society as a whole; less respect for the sanctity of marriage and the family etc etc etc and even my family who have worked every hour in Gods day for years and years, are feeling the pinch.

So am I actually stupid? Maybe Reform won’t deliver…but I don’t know that yet. I do know Labour isn’t delivering for me. The Greens would be a shit show for me (and probably everyone the truth be told). The Conservatives were useless, so why not take a punt on the party whose policies align mostly with my beliefs.

If it turns out they have lied, which it might, then I will consign them to the ‘useless bullshitters’ bin along with all the other parties. But I’m willing to vote to see.

So once again…why should I vote the other parties?

Look at Nigel Farage’s track record, and look at what’s happened in the US under Donald Trump. Farage has openly admired Trump’s style of politics, so it’s reasonable to question where that approach leads. Look at oil prices and the state of the economy in the US.
You might not agree with policies that focus on helping others, but when a society becomes more divided and the gap between rich and poor keeps growing, it creates instability rather than strength. It sounds to me like you need to do more research before casting your vote.
All the promises Trump made and he hasn’t even kept one! (Sound familiar Farage? Ask Clacton how they feel) The MAGA are now looking at their petrol prices, food bills, lack of healthcare and a bill of 3 billion a day to a fund a war that they didn’t agree to, wasn’t approved by congress and has no clear objective and they’re starting to realise the hard way. Don’t make the same mistake.

24kPalamino · 16/03/2026 06:27

Giraffehaver · 16/03/2026 01:27

I'm off to Wales as soon as we're in a position to move

Well welcome to Wales!
I’m Welsh and currently looking forward to voting Reform in the May election.

24kPalamino · 16/03/2026 06:35

Plasticdreams · 16/03/2026 04:33

Look at Nigel Farage’s track record, and look at what’s happened in the US under Donald Trump. Farage has openly admired Trump’s style of politics, so it’s reasonable to question where that approach leads. Look at oil prices and the state of the economy in the US.
You might not agree with policies that focus on helping others, but when a society becomes more divided and the gap between rich and poor keeps growing, it creates instability rather than strength. It sounds to me like you need to do more research before casting your vote.
All the promises Trump made and he hasn’t even kept one! (Sound familiar Farage? Ask Clacton how they feel) The MAGA are now looking at their petrol prices, food bills, lack of healthcare and a bill of 3 billion a day to a fund a war that they didn’t agree to, wasn’t approved by congress and has no clear objective and they’re starting to realise the hard way. Don’t make the same mistake.

I think Trump is doing a good job. When I’m in the US, I see Republican supporters are happy with the low fuel costs (I’m there a lot and compared to us they pay pennies). They are happy that immigration is back under control. They are happy that American jobs are now protected. They are happy that Trump is fighting against ‘woke ideology’.
I don’t think Trump was a mistake. I think Kamala would have been. I think this country could do with a strong leader for a change.

Blueharmonica · 16/03/2026 07:17

catinateacup · 15/03/2026 23:46

You completely mistake the point. Of course I know about the parliaments: I did a stage in Brussels (and Strasbourg).I can pretty much guarantee that I know more about EU politics than you will ever be willing to find out. What you’re completely missing is that this isn’t some kind of “bureaucratic red tape waste blah blah” as put about by Brexit nuts. If you think so, you just prove you don’t really know anything about the point or workings of the EU; only what you’ve been told. Do you know WHY the parliaments move? Have you ever wondered why nobody seemed bothered about that before the Murdoch/Farage right cooked up this box-fresh whinge in about 2014? Do you know why nobody seemed bothered before then? Or why other EU countries aren’t that bothered either? Maybe try finding out.

You also don’t pay for it. British voters got back more than they ever paid to the EU in economic and social benefits (as we are all finding out, now our economy is slowly sliding down the toilet).

Plus - and I hate to tell you - basing your knowledge of politics on a couple of news articles isn’t very sensible. Have you actually read what these articles you’ve linked to actually say?

Edited

Ha ha, this is interesting as when you called the pp an idiot and write things like The stuff about “moving the parliament” and the vaccines is an absolute tell. If you believe any of it you’re an easy mark for this and This is all straight-up misinformation straight from the pages of the Daily Express it gave the impression that you were actually quite ignorant of the points that the pp raised and quite a long way from a person who can guarantee that I know more about EU politics than you will ever be willing to find out.

This exchange is a classic.

Plasticdreams · 16/03/2026 07:35

24kPalamino · 16/03/2026 06:35

I think Trump is doing a good job. When I’m in the US, I see Republican supporters are happy with the low fuel costs (I’m there a lot and compared to us they pay pennies). They are happy that immigration is back under control. They are happy that American jobs are now protected. They are happy that Trump is fighting against ‘woke ideology’.
I don’t think Trump was a mistake. I think Kamala would have been. I think this country could do with a strong leader for a change.

What are you on about?
He hasn’t lowered fuel prices, what are you on about - They’ve gone up.

American jobs protected? From whom exactly? From ‘illegals’ who don’t speak English or have the right to work. If they can come and take an ‘Americans’ job that easily, they probably need to look at themselves.

He doesn’t have immigration under control. ICE have been terrorising American citizens and locking them up. The actual percentage of criminals that they’ve manage to deport is negligible compared to the amount of American citizens they have illegally snatched off the streets.

You might want to read the news every now and again.

Warmlight1 · 16/03/2026 07:41

abracadabra1980 · 15/03/2026 23:02

100% agree with this. I live in an ABC1 demographic area, and I can tell you that the majority of folk here are seething with open borders and the economy squeezing the middle to high income earners. They are going to Reform because they have a desperate need for change and the two main parties are full of liars. Over and over again people are fed up with being told one thing, then they do another. Personally I'm politically homeless and listen to all opinions from Jeremy Corbyn to Rupert Lowe. With the state of the world in the middle east, I'd feel safer in Rupert Lowe's hands right now, than anyone else's.

You must have either not read his Facebook page or be unconcerned about the tendencies displayed therein. If not the outright racism there's a peculiar monothematic quality which appears a bit like a disorder to me. No disrespect those with disorders. You could be a bot. That's another possibility.

NotAnotherScarf · 16/03/2026 07:54

catinateacup · 15/03/2026 22:56

Are you an idiot? This is all straight-up misinformation straight from the pages of the Daily Express. It’s simply garbage made up by malevolent journalists. Why not add in the bendy banana rubbish as well? That was literally invented by Johnson!

Err the parliament moves every 6 months. Fact
The EU pay farmers not to farm. Fact before that they threw away the surplus to keep prices high
Wages have only seen real growth since Brexit. Fact
You can still go on holiday for 3 months in Europe. Fact
And I don't actually know anyone who has worked in an EU country. Fact

The EU did try to stop the UK having the COVID vaccine. Fact

The European commissioners who set the agenda for what can and can't be decided by the EU are unelected. Fact

So ....

catinateacup · 16/03/2026 07:56

NotAnotherScarf · 16/03/2026 07:54

Err the parliament moves every 6 months. Fact
The EU pay farmers not to farm. Fact before that they threw away the surplus to keep prices high
Wages have only seen real growth since Brexit. Fact
You can still go on holiday for 3 months in Europe. Fact
And I don't actually know anyone who has worked in an EU country. Fact

The EU did try to stop the UK having the COVID vaccine. Fact

The European commissioners who set the agenda for what can and can't be decided by the EU are unelected. Fact

So ....

Sigh…

24kPalamino · 16/03/2026 08:00

Plasticdreams · 16/03/2026 07:35

What are you on about?
He hasn’t lowered fuel prices, what are you on about - They’ve gone up.

American jobs protected? From whom exactly? From ‘illegals’ who don’t speak English or have the right to work. If they can come and take an ‘Americans’ job that easily, they probably need to look at themselves.

He doesn’t have immigration under control. ICE have been terrorising American citizens and locking them up. The actual percentage of criminals that they’ve manage to deport is negligible compared to the amount of American citizens they have illegally snatched off the streets.

You might want to read the news every now and again.

I didn’t say he lowered fuel prices, but his policy on fuel keeps prices low unlike here in the UK where our ridiculous policy means we are all paying many times what the Americans do. Haven’t been in the US just last month, I can attest that the fuel prices remain significantly lower than elsewhere in the world and this is in partdue to their rejection of net zero.

The tariffs have meant that many industries have chosen to remain in America, meaning American jobs.

and perhaps you need to look at how many people are making it through the Mexican border illegally now compared to when the Democrats were in office. ICE are heavy handed in states where the left are making removal of illegal immigrants difficult for people trying to carry out their job.

We clearly have different ideology and what is important to you is not important to me, and what is important to me is not important to you so it is unsurprising that we will have different views on the same things. But therefore I could end up very very happy with a Reform government, even if you think it’s a disaster,

Blueharmonica · 16/03/2026 08:08

Nosea · 16/03/2026 00:08

You can agree with some brexiteers on some things and disagree with them on another.

Yes, this is actually one of the main reasons the debate was lost. Once the left switched from seeing the EU as a capitalist evil to adopting it as one of their entities that is above criticism it was all over.

Blueharmonica · 16/03/2026 08:12

catinateacup · 16/03/2026 07:56

Sigh…

This response is a bit disappointing from someone who ‘can pretty much guarantee that I know more about EU politics than you will ever be willing to find out’

anyolddinosaur · 16/03/2026 08:29

I've voted YABU because you sound hysterical. Farage would be a disaster and I cant understand why working people think he would be good when it'll be rich man prioritising his buddies again.

The rest of the world looks pretty shit if you are female but if you are willing to move and work it's not impossible at all.

Plasticdreams · 16/03/2026 08:37

24kPalamino · 16/03/2026 08:00

I didn’t say he lowered fuel prices, but his policy on fuel keeps prices low unlike here in the UK where our ridiculous policy means we are all paying many times what the Americans do. Haven’t been in the US just last month, I can attest that the fuel prices remain significantly lower than elsewhere in the world and this is in partdue to their rejection of net zero.

The tariffs have meant that many industries have chosen to remain in America, meaning American jobs.

and perhaps you need to look at how many people are making it through the Mexican border illegally now compared to when the Democrats were in office. ICE are heavy handed in states where the left are making removal of illegal immigrants difficult for people trying to carry out their job.

We clearly have different ideology and what is important to you is not important to me, and what is important to me is not important to you so it is unsurprising that we will have different views on the same things. But therefore I could end up very very happy with a Reform government, even if you think it’s a disaster,

I’m not disputing that fuel is cheaper in the United States, but saying that’s because they’ve “rejected net zero” is a bit misleading. The US has some of the lowest fuel taxes in the developed world and is one of the largest oil producers on the planet. That’s the main reason their petrol is cheaper. Prices have sky records under the Trump administration.
In the UK a large proportion of what we pay at the pump is fuel duty and VAT. Even if the UK scrapped net zero tomorrow, petrol here would still likely be far more expensive because of taxation, not climate policy.

On tariffs, while they can protect certain industries in the short term, they also raise prices across the economy. When tariffs are imposed, businesses that rely on imported materials pay more and those costs usually get passed on to consumers. Now your average Americans shopping basket has doubled due to Tariffs
Other countries also tend to retaliate with their own tariffs, which can hurt exporters. So while tariffs might help a few sectors, the evidence overall is pretty clear on how damaging it is to the economy.

As for immigration at the southern US border, those numbers fluctuate for lots of reasons beyond who happens to be in the White House. Economic crises, political instability (err.. wars - hello) , and migration patterns in Latin America all play a role. Border encounters have been high under multiple administrations partly because enforcement and monitoring have increased, meaning more people are being detected rather than simply slipping through unnoticed.

And on ICE being “heavy handed”, that’s exactly why it’s controversial. Some states limit cooperation with federal immigration enforcement because they believe local police should focus on local crime rather than acting as immigration officers, as it can reduce trust in law enforcement within communities.

Nosea · 16/03/2026 08:51

@24kPalamino I think ice can be a bit too heavy handed with going after us citizens. But I know they've also gone after and deported illegals.

Under trump's first administration the us went from importing energy to being a net-exporter of it.

Lifesd · 16/03/2026 08:55

There are plenty more places to move than Europe OP, apply to live in any of those places!

PistachioTiramisu · 16/03/2026 09:04

Try Dubai, OP! There's sure to be a lot of property available for rental soon and iots of jobs.

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