AIBU to question praying and sleeping in the library kids area?

[sunshine240778474]

Yesterday I took the kids to the local library (Inverness, scotland). The local library has a kids area. The kids area has a nice artificial grass mat for the kids to sit and read their books on.

When I entered the library there was a man who had folded the kids mat over so he could kneel on the floor and pray to Allah.

Therefore this prevented the kids from sitting on the mat and reading their books.
The man was praying for a while.

I don't have a problem with someone praying if that's what they want to do.

Is it appropriate to be doing it in the kids area in a local library?

Also, there was a woman curled up in the corner of the library sleeping. This was also in the kids area.

I've seen people sleeping in the library on a few occasions now. I've never seen it in the kids' area.

Ofcourse, I feel sorry for her if she's tired, but again is it appropriate to be using the local library, especially the kids area, as a shelter?

I left the library, and told the staff politely, I didn't find it kid friendly.

Was I being unreasonable?

If you had posted about literally any random lone man on the planet, taking up space designated for children in a library (or anywhere), moving furniture and preventing people from using it for it’s intended purpose you would have received universal agreement. This thread would have been filled with “male entitlement” type posts. But as soon as you mentioned that one little detail indicating his religion, many people on here will seek to excuse it. I’ve no idea why these people seem to think that we should expect less from minority groups. It’s patronising towards those groups.. and to be frank, it’s unfair to non-minority groups to tell us we need to put up with poor behaviour. We deserve to be respected as much as anyone else.

The fact is, you encountered an ignorant man who felt entitled to take up space that wasn't intended for him. It was clearly unnecessary and deliberately designed to prevent others from using it. His excuse for doing it is irrelevant.

I would have expected the library staff to find a more appropriate space for both activities if they were preventing children getting to the books.

The thing is, I don’t think there’s any evidence that the staff either didn’t tell him he could use that space as it was empty at the time he asked, or that there were any children in the space until the OP arrived. There are a lot of assumptions being made by other posters and I can’t see that the OP’s posts about the facts of what happened support them.

"It could well create a problem if loads of people did that in a public place or an average work place but they don't."

This is actually a good test of whether something is reasonable or not. What would it be like if lots of people did it?

Do you actually believe that Judaism and Christianity are White people’s religions? WTAF.

People in this country have consistently “expressed disquiet” about Christian practices for decades. And the church has adapted in response to public criticism. So your sneaky little accusation about “what might possibly be different about people who follow Islam” is unjustified. Leave people to have discussions. You don’t need to gallop in like a knight in shining armour, here to protect the helpless man from the mean White people. This is a thread about an individual inconveniencing others, not a racist attack.

I am a historian of society, art, architecture and by extension, some politics and religion. I am not asserting anything about those religions but pointing out arguments I often see from people who have objections to expressions of Islam, Hinduism and Sikhism in particular. If you think there’s no way that there is a race element to the OP and to many, many other disingenuous posts made here in recent years which purport to be about one thing but on examination turn out to be about quite something quite other, then I’d invite you to reflect a bit about the ways in which social media is being manipulated to increase division in society, stoke up racial hatred and achieve particular political ends.

Some of the rural libraries in my county are so small that there isn't room for a separate area for anything.

And some of the "local" libraries are too small to have a distinctly separate children's area. I can think of at least two where the only clue that you're in the children's area is there are small chairs as well as full size ones. They tend not to have clearly demarked areas for anything, except the desks with PC's on, and they only have their own area is because it saves on cabling.

It's only in the big, central libraries in the largest towns that the buildings are large enough for the sort of setup that some people regard as standard.

Well you’ve not addressed a single point that I made in opposition to your post. You’ve simply doubled down on what you said and essentially just repeated your previous assumptions with different wording. I’ve already explained why it’s unfair to make those assumptions so I’m not repeating myself.

Perhaps, if your first thought is how social media influences other people’s opinions then I’d invite you to reflect on the possibility that you might’ve also fallen prey to social media driven bias.

(edited for typo)

Unfortunately I agree with you.

I deal in facts and figures. So many times I’ve tried to engage in debate here by refuting massive assumptions and prejudices by bringing in facts, but they are roundly ignored. It’s made it quite clear that most people don’t actually appreciate being given facts when they contradict a position they have taken based on something other than facts. Usually prejudice. Often stoked by social media, which seems to be where many, many people now get their information about the world. They prefer their prejudiced position. My post reflects the reality of the situation.

What is your actual point? Should he have been in there?

It would be really helpful if we could criticise bad behaviour without repeated and spurious accusations of racism.

Criticising someone’s religion related behaviour is not racist. You will find plenty of criticism of all sorts of religious practitioners but only one attracts these ridiculous accusations.

If certain religions don’t want to be criticised then they need to stop behaving in an anti social or hateful way. And preferably stop wanting to murder us.

What facts and figures do you have to back your point?

I’m interested to know what ‘massive assumptions’ you are talking about and what facts you have to refute them.

Do you feel like OP has made any massive assumptions?

Inverness library has a separate reference library and runs several groups and activities. I would have thought there was a more convenient place for someone to say their prayers than the area specifically designated for children.

As I said upthread - there’s zero evidence in the OP’s posts to show that he either hadn’t been given permission to use the space, or that there were any children in the space before the OP arrived there to be disturbed by him. Posters here have, without knowing if either of those is true, ascribed all kinds of potential misdeeds to the man, from being a paedophile downwards. I can easily picture a situation where a man asked the librarian ‘is there a quiet place I can pray for five minutes looking in this direction?’, the librarian looked across and said ‘there’s nobody in the children's library area, you could use that for a few minutes’ and then he went about his business. But everyone posting has assumed quite a series of other events, none backed up by facts. I am questioning why their thoughts immediately turn in a particular direction.

I also note that the sleeping woman has elicited a tiny fraction of the comments that the praying man has.

Missed this, what the actual?
Christianity has been a part of our institutions for nearly 2000 years. Medieval life was utterly ruled by the church. I can’t say I like always like that fact, although it has informed a distinct set of ethics and morals here, I wouldnt want to be ruled by religious nutters: and that’s why I don’t particularly value Islam being favoured and its adherents kowtowed to so much. It is an immigrant religion into an overpopulated country.

But as I said upthread it’s largely irrelevant. Surestart groups used to annoy me by moving bookcases round and taking up our local library, years ago. No one has the right to take over shared space. No one. Because then it is not shared and it will be rendered inaccessible to others.

I work in a library, and I cannot imagine anyone I work with telling an unaccompanied man to go into the children's library. Whether there were children in there is immaterial.

I would have moved her. The reason why people talk less about her though, is because she is a woman, and therefore less of a risk.

So you think him being in there is acceptable?

Do you mean there’s a race element to man’s behaviour or that the op found it inappropriate?

A man praying takes up more floor space than a woman in a chair. She’s inactive and presumably he’s stopping children using their area in a way she’s not as much.

I regularly use libraries.
Some big with a clear separate children's area, some small with just a corner.
In the daytime unless there's a specific Rhyme/Story Time session happening the area is frequently empty.
School age children are at school. Younger children in childcare. The ones at home with a SAHP usually go when there's a group on but not so much at other times (obviously some do - like the OP).
I really would like the hear the other side of the story.
The man could have asked permission. The library staff could have thought "well generally the children's library is empty this time of day so as it will only be 10 minutes if that it will be fine" and said it was ok.
I assume when he had finished his prayer he left.
In that short time she had to wait the OP could have taken her children to the adult shelves and got her children to "choose" some books for her to read - and chatted to her children about books that she likes and when the man left then went into the children's part.
This whole thread feels like a Daily Mail comments section. Horrible.
Modern libraries are frequently classed as Community Hubs. Sometimes space is used for different things/organisation and not just books.
In fact just last week one library I use held a session with local community police for people to discuss local concerns.
Where were they set up? The kids section. Because generally between 9 and 3 there's no children around to use it. They are at school or daycare.

Sometimes space is used for different things/organisation and not just books.
In fact just last week one library I use held a session with local community police for people to discuss local concerns.

..and sometimes it’s used for a children’s area.

I’m pretty sure that this is right wing clickbait too. But I did want to say that even as a fully signed up woke warrior, I think the library staff shouldn't have put him in the children’s library unless there really wasn’t anywhere else. Which there was-Inverness Library has a reference library, for example.

Are you not going to condemn the police hosting a grown up event in an area intended for children?

It’s not appropriate, that space is for children specifically. It’s suspicious when adults go in there without children.

Unless of course the specific problem is that it was a man, or rather a Muslim man, and not just that the space is intended for children.