AIBU to question praying and sleeping in the library kids area?

[sunshine240778474]

Yesterday I took the kids to the local library (Inverness, scotland). The local library has a kids area. The kids area has a nice artificial grass mat for the kids to sit and read their books on.

When I entered the library there was a man who had folded the kids mat over so he could kneel on the floor and pray to Allah.

Therefore this prevented the kids from sitting on the mat and reading their books.
The man was praying for a while.

I don't have a problem with someone praying if that's what they want to do.

Is it appropriate to be doing it in the kids area in a local library?

Also, there was a woman curled up in the corner of the library sleeping. This was also in the kids area.

I've seen people sleeping in the library on a few occasions now. I've never seen it in the kids' area.

Ofcourse, I feel sorry for her if she's tired, but again is it appropriate to be using the local library, especially the kids area, as a shelter?

I left the library, and told the staff politely, I didn't find it kid friendly.

Was I being unreasonable?

My point is that yes I agree this is a global conspiracy, possibly run by the most powerful people in the world, rather than one entitled man’s selfish behaviour.

Some people seem to think that a library is a community space and that therefore everyone should be allowed to use it for anything and everything they want. That’s not how it works. Libraries are not dumping grounds for behaviours, nor for the endless problems forced by the social problems caused by an anti-democratic elite.

We have to have restrictions on what shared spaces are used for to enable everyone to use them. You minimise opportunity for conflicts so that everyone can have access to the core service provided by the space, which in the case of libraries is public information and help to be able to access that information in future ie literacy support. Only thus can equality of access and democratic rights for all be granted.

If you want public prayer rooms or hostels then put them somewhere else.

Quite. Perhaps the mum and kids also were on limited time? This is the problem of how to balance everyone’s access.

Great post.

Well, like I said, if the area was empty and noone was using it, he probably thought it was a convenient empty space and that he wouldn't be hurting anyone
Now he knows it does get used, he hopefully won't do it again. If he continues to, then I agree, it's selfish and inconsiderate.

Btw, in case you're interested, I looked it up and according to Google it's usually around 10 minutes or less.
This ties in with times I have seen Muslims praying in public places, I've witnessed it for maybe around 8 mins at a rough guess.

One of the libraries I took my son to was frequented by a very smelly sleeping homeless person. He was sat in the children's area too.
Great that he had somewhere warm to sit - but not great in the children's section. Maybe seemed worse as it was tiny.

It’s a convenient space for children, not for religious ceremonies.

No, I’m not interested.

It does not matter how much time it takes the point stands. We are not a dominant Muslim society, nor even a dominant religious society: we are a secular society which has been good enough in the past to accommodate a lot of foreign religions. They need to co exist peacefully in neutral spaces that are dedicated to other things. No one gets to take over shared spaces for ‘just this’ or ‘just that’ or by a slow process of accumulation the shared space will no longer exist. Libraries are places of citizenship. For all. This is why there were also questions about them being used to promote particular political decisions of our time (ie trans people doing readings dressed in drag). It’s a hard neutrality to maintain.

(I also know libraries well as I worked and qualified in them and expected to stay there. Sadly like many tens of thousands I was forced to look for a living elsewhere.)

It’s inappropriate why are we accepting this shit

Your attitude encourages intolerance in my view. He would be seen as being entitled. This breeds resentment. As the librarian posted on this post the space was meant for children.

What about those sheep who believe conspiracy theories?

We still don’t know if there was a
“Is there anywhere I can pray?”
”Just go wherever/over there”
conversation

There's one man who's nearly always asleep in the same chair in my local library. It doesn't really cause a problem. But there is also a very smelly man often in the adult section and that is a problem. I don't think the staff can turf someone out just because they smell.

@Annasimon If a person is praying in a library, then that very act makes it then not a neutral space. That is not hard to understand.

Evidently, it's difficult for you to understand.

@KTheGrey A book is like a pot of jam - the ideas or the jam are contained in an inanimate format. A person decides what they do and in what place. They are not confined and they act. Books do nothing. People have agency.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make, and I strongly suspect that you don't know either.

I'm not sure how people having agency means they shouldn't be allowed to pray in a library. I don't give a shit what anyone does in a library so long as it does not affect me.

It affects you by establishing that someone - probably not coincidentally a man - has more right to use a space for something other than it was originally intended, while those for whom it was originally intended have to put up, shut up, and in fact should go away and come back at another time when it’s more convenient for the man.

And smile about it. Let’s not forget that bit.

We can! As pp mentioned, libraries have bye-laws and that is one of ours.

4. No person who in the
reasonable opinion of a library
officer is offensively unclean in
person or clothing or both
shall remain in the library after
having been asked by a library
officer to leave the library.

Also, no sleeping:

10. No person shall sleep in the
library after having been
requested not to do so by a
library officer.

Adults are asked to move if they are in the children's area without a child, and there are no designated prayer spaces. All our separate rooms cannot be used without being booked and paid for.

It doesn’t matter. He doesn’t “need” to do anything, he is an adult who has chosen to believe in a system created 1500 years ago 1000s of miles away. If he can’t find somewhere suitable to pray then he can’t pray. He can’t just decide to occupy an area reserved for kids in a public building. If praying is that important he needs to arrange his life in such a way that doesn’t impact on others. If he can’t do that, he doesn’t get to pray (which is an optional activity/ even if his chosen belief system trues to say otherwise)

Only considerate of others if they are the "right" people. E.g. super considerate to a trans-women who wants to use any space, but inconsiderate to the women who were already using it. Or in this case - very considerate of the man using the children's area to pray but inconsiderate of the kids waiting to choose their books.

I always know what point I am trying to make. It is one of the joys of being me.

PP suggested that having religious books or books with diversity of opinion in a library means that those ideas can be acted out in that space. I was pointing out that ideas trapped safely inside books don’t do anything. People with ideas can use those ideas to action them. Having ideas in library books does not licence acting them out, or Wuthering Heights would not be permitted in libraries at all because nobody wants the hanging of pet dogs there.

People can choose what they do. And they can choose to act appropriately - praying is either inside a dedicated space or done in a way that people not praying are not inconvenienced.

Whether you give a shit or not is supremely unimportant because it’s a shared space, so what’s acceptable is not dependent on your shit giving. It’s an agreed norm.

Never mind.

@KTheGrey PP suggested that having religious books or books with diversity of opinion in a library means that those ideas can be acted out in that space.

No, I didn't say that. As I already explained, I said that the presence of religion in a library (such as people praying, or having religious texts) is still compatible with a library being a place that is neutral on religion.

praying is either inside a dedicated space or done in a way that people not praying are not inconvenienced.

So literally what I said then?

Why did you feel the need to repeat something that I stated and present it as your own thoughts?

Not meaning to derail the thread, but a question for the librarians. Are unaccompanied adults really banned from the childrens book area? Are we not permitted to borrow childrens books?

I've often gone into the children's section alone (research into children's fiction). I see no need to ban unaccompanied adults.