To think not enough value is put on friendships that aren’t particularly deep?

[FeastisReady]

I have a good group of close friends who I’ve known for decades and who I can rely on in a crisis, confide in, etc.

I have other friends who I couldn’t do that with. But does that make the friendship not of any value?

I’m thinking of one in particular, an old work colleague who I meet with from time to time. We have some wine, talk about films, TV, books we’ve read, meals, holidays - we always have a laugh, drink more than we intended and stay out later than we expected. We barely mention our kids, our husbands, work, except in passing and it’s bloody great to take my mind off all of those things for a few hours.

Between meet ups we barely contact one another.

Yet I sometimes read on here that a friendship that isn’t someone you can call on anytime isn’t worthwhile.

AIBU?

I think people who are generally emotionally stable and socially skilled have a range of people in their lives whose company they enjoy, and who they value very much.

The people who expect all their friendships to be intense, enmeshed, ride-or-die affairs are generally a bit full-on and high conflict.

There are some funny views about friendship on here.

Some suspicion that all friends are out to use you and you must be permanently on your guard about this.

Or that having friends of your own is somehow frivolous and unnecessary once you have a husband and kids and that only mum friends with suitable children are required or acceptable.

But I agree with you - I have several long standing friendships that involve meeting up twice a year for dinner, catch up and a shared interest (usually a specific band or genre of music). These are still valuable relationships to me - I enjoy their company and our shared interests.

There might be the odd WhatsApp message in between or an Instagram like but not much. And that is totally fine.

I love the fun, not too deep friendships! People whose company I enjoy and who enjoy mine, but i wouldnt dream of calling them at a random time to trauma dump on them. I agree there can be a funny view here that they are not valid enough. I'd say the contrary, the friendships with people who you can hang out with and have a laugh with are very important indeed, they keep me happy and sane.

YANBU. It took me decades to appreciate the massive value of 'shallow' friendships. Once i did, I enjoyed them far more and stopped stressing that the friendship never deepened. I value casual acquaintance almost as much as close friendship now.

A lot of friendship intimacy and involvement in daily lives is also situational.

One of my more casual friends who I see twice a year probably would be one of my most closest friends if she lived much nearer. Our friendship would have had the time and space to grow there way and likely would have been more deeply enmeshed in our daily lives.

But we met while on a group activity holiday and have always lived hundreds of miles apart so that part of being someone's daily lives is unlikely to ever develop.
But she is great fun, great taste in music and when she visits London, I look forward to a fun and interesting evening together.

Agree. But if you listened to a lot of people on here nobody would ever make any friends in the first place. I've heard people say you shouldn't be friends with: - work colleagues because it's unprofessional and you spend enough time with them anyway,

• school gate mums because you don't have anything in common with them other than children the same age (which is untrue, presumably you're also a similar age and live in the same area, and often of a similar-ish social/economic status)
• any group of more than 2 women because they are apparently all 'bitchy'
• old school friends because it means you haven't matured as a person and are stuck in the past
• any men, at all, ever, because men and women can never just be friends

-anyone you get to know online, because they could be psychopaths

oh and apparently any event specifically designed to make friends like MeetUp etc are only for pathetic socially awkward weirdos!

And if despite this you do actually manage to make some friends via approved means, god forbid they then ask you to spend time with them more than one a year, or attend an event that might cost you money, like a hen party or wedding or birthday night out - that's selfish and inconsiderate and ridiculous to expect anyone would ever want to voluntarily leave the house and have fun when they could be 'snuggled up in my PJs with my little family.'

I think this is pretty much spot on - especially the “little family” stuff!

Agree! There is lots of evidence that having a range of these weaker social ties is really good for mental health.

I've always had a few close friends, but as I've got older I've got much better at making and keeping this type of casual friend, and it's a great joy in my life.

Yes, I think a disproportionate number of Mners struggle with friendship, and that an alien reading from Planet Whatsit for insight into earthlings would get a very odd idea of human relationships, and be given the idea that friendships in particular involve ‘drama’, misunderstandings, ‘ghosting’, ‘exclusions’, ‘cliques’, and, perhaps most weirdly of all, that ‘friend’ means someone you don’t much like but mysteriously feel compelled to spend time with.

Agreed. That’s Mn, though. Where both OPs and responders struggle with friendships.

I really agree, I see friendship described on here in ways more intense than I'd describe a romantic partner.

I think friends ARE weak ties, inherently!

You can celebrate and feel glad for the richness and intimacy if you have one or two real besties in the course of your life, but I wouldn't even with them think it requires commitment to calling 5 times per week or assuming you are there for them 24/7, helping them move house etc. That's behaviour for partners.

I like friends for a reason, friends for a season, friends for life. The reason friends you probably see more often but less deeply; the season friends you might see quite intensely but then move on. The life friends can include a commitment to caring but practical meet ups can wax and wane.

Even family have times when you are closer and times when you drift. Sibling moves to Germany, have a few years where you're not in touch much, then when grandma dies and you have to do care and clearing her house the sibling ties refresh and strengthen again.

It's probably what I'd call an acquaintance rather than a friend but I actually agree. It wasn't until lockdown that I appreciated how much richer life is with these weaker but still valuable ties. I think for most people their close ties can be quite samey but these ones can be very varied.

Completely agree. I wouldn't even necessarily call them "shallow" or "not that deep" friendships because in my experience they can transform quite unexpectedly. Sometimes you just need a life event to pull an acquaintance into your orbit more frequently to find they've suddenly become a lifelong friend. When I think of two of my best friends now, I remember I was on distantly friendly terms with both for years after I first actually met them. One of them then moved to my area of London and we became each other's default person to call when we just wanted to go for a drink or hang out casually. Another of them started going out with my housemate and so I ended up seeing much more of him than I had before.

I feel this. The friendships that were close and deep at the time of lockdown have survived but a lot of acquaintanceships were nipped in the bud. It would have felt odd to reach out to people I'd only met at a few parties but I would've liked the chance to see if some of those could've become real friendships organically.

I don’t think it’s just on mumsnet people are “weird” with friendships. I definitely experience people segregating friends and actively disappearing if you no longer “fit” exactly with their life.

I used to have a nice group of friends. We were a mix of school/teen friendships. I lost pretty much all of them once they had kids. They renamed our WhatsApp group a mum related name and even though I (I think) was invited to nights out (even when it was worded like who’s coming to the next mums out on the town) I obviously wasn’t invited to things they were doing things with the kids. So eventually I just stopped responding to the nights out messages and no one really noticed. I would message a couple that I was always closer to in the past and ask if they fancied dinner and a catch up and it was always met with a “too tired really just want to curl up and watch a movie with the family sorry”. So I stopped asking that as well. Haven’t seen any of them for a few years now. I’m quite happy these days though without proper friends. I have people at work I chat to and message occasionally but don’t see them out of work. I have my husband I can talk to as well obviously.

I heard something interesting about how, during Covid, everyone was deprived of those casual friendships because we couldn't go to work/exercise classes/book clubs, whatever, and it had a marked effect on many people's happiness. Those casual chats mattered a lot.

I know I felt happier when I got a volunteer job helping out at a covid vaccination centre.

I agree and I think the all or nothing approach some people take to friendship is incredibly toxic.

It strikes me again and again reading Mumsnet that so many people struggle with the basics of friendship: so many people who seem to fail to understand the rules and how to build relationships.

You read post after post from people who want to impose terrifyingly controlling behaviour on people they have met in the name of “friendship”. Throwing their toys out of the pram because someone blows them out once, tolerating stifling behaviour etc. You only have to look at the “bitchy school mums” threads to see this paranoia in action.

I don’t know why grown women find friendship so difficult, to be honest. It’s like anything else: there’s give and take, compromise and disappointment. I wonder whether this is a new thing: I can’t help thinking it wasn’t this bad when I was young.

I quite like the casual acquaintance type friendship. Nice enough to have a coffee and share an activity with but no drama!! I can forget them at the doorstep and never feel guilty about saying no to anything else or missing a class.

I agree, but I do think far more posters on Mn experience significant difficulties with friendships than in the general population. I assume it’s a self-selecting group on here — people who find it easier to be online than with other people in RL. Where it strikes me as unhealthy is when they push their own deeply unhealthy version of friendship dynamics on here, potentially to people who accept it as true because someone on the internet said it.

@latetothefisting another one for the list - neighbours. It's likely to end up in conflict and best in the long run to just stay out of each other's way.

All my friendships are light touch friendships, meet up for a cuppa or a theatre/cinema trip type of relationship and that’s just the way I like it, I couldn’t cope with the intense drama filled friendships you read about on here.

For me it really was a case of don't know what you've got till it's gone. I didn't used to value acquaintances at all before that.

I agree with the posters calling it an acquaintance

Acquaintances have value but I've been told off on here for saying that they're not the same as friends. But IMHO they really aren't.

@Thepeopleversuswork things are definitely different now compared to say 30 years ago. Also, I've said on here before, my parents were big believers in friendship - the kind you help each other out. I was raised to be part of the village and always help out. People don't want help anymore.

Oh, I should get outside on my tea break because otherwise I will be waffling on for hours 😂 there is actual sun here!

Yes I love those little pockets of friends where the conversation isn’t as heavy. I’ve got 2 super close friends and when we meet up it’s catching up about kids, houses, ageing parents, holiday plans etc. But then I have a group of friends from work who are late 20’s/early 30’s and we sometimes have drinks after work and I love being able to talk about “none grown up” things, it’s lovely!