To think not enough value is put on friendships that aren’t particularly deep?

[FeastisReady]

I have a good group of close friends who I’ve known for decades and who I can rely on in a crisis, confide in, etc.

I have other friends who I couldn’t do that with. But does that make the friendship not of any value?

I’m thinking of one in particular, an old work colleague who I meet with from time to time. We have some wine, talk about films, TV, books we’ve read, meals, holidays - we always have a laugh, drink more than we intended and stay out later than we expected. We barely mention our kids, our husbands, work, except in passing and it’s bloody great to take my mind off all of those things for a few hours.

Between meet ups we barely contact one another.

Yet I sometimes read on here that a friendship that isn’t someone you can call on anytime isn’t worthwhile.

AIBU?

Absolutely agree @FeastisReady , I live a very quiet life due to long term illness, can’t socialise much, and I really, really miss casual friendships. They can give fresh perspectives, interest, and occasionally, intimacy - without the demands of a closer relationship.

Maybe it’s partly an introvert/ extrovert thing - my extremely introvert partner makes lifelong friends when he makes them, but doesn’t ever look for more. I make friends whenever I get the chance and even enjoy chatting to neighbours ( shock!)

You can value someone in your life no matter the closeness.

@FacingtheSun

I do think far more posters on Mn experience significant difficulties with friendships than in the general population. I assume it’s a self-selecting group on here — people who find it easier to be online than with other people in RL. Where it strikes me as unhealthy is when they push their own deeply unhealthy version of friendship dynamics on here, potentially to people who accept it as true because someone on the internet said it.

Completely. All the “block and delete” and unnecessary flouncing for one thing.

And the bizarre view that I see again and again that “friends = drama”.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Why should a friend (or even a casual acquaintance) create more “drama” than a spouse or a sibling? If anything I would say a friend is far less stress most of the time than a family member.

Agree. I'm always surprised on here when people talk about having one or two friends, tops, and basically seem to see people outside their immediate family as not to be trusted. I expect it's the same people who never answer their doors or phones without an appointment.

Whereas I choose my friends because I enjoy their company. I don't see an exchange of services as intrinsic to friendship. Obviously it happens, if you get dug into one another's lives, but the key thing for me remains 'Do I like this person's company?' One of the problems with a lot of friendships that come up as problematic on Mn is that they seem to almost invariably involve the OP complaining about how many favours she did for a 'friend' who then didn't invite her child to the other child's party or something. No reference to liking.

So many of them involve taking offence when someone fails to treat you, at all times, like a member of their closest inner circle.

You're going for coffee, but oh no! She invited another of her friends! The Dynamic Is Changed!

She invited you to her wedding, but only the evening do!

She made plans with another mutual friend based on something they're both into and you're not - what a snub!

You often just have to accept that you're not actually best friends with someone. It may come in time or it may not. What takes a friendship to the next level is often circumstance, not effort.

(Some more of my longest friendships: she was a friend of a friend who was often at the same parties but we took months to have a proper conversation and then when we did we realised we had fucked-up families in exactly the same way. Another was someone who happened to attend the same annual work event that I did, for a completely different reason, and so we ended up treasuring a bit of socialising time that didn't have to double up as awful networking for either of us.)

It's kind of a long-running joke but it is frequently accurate - MN is characterised by posters who hate both their husbands and their friends.

Different friends for different things! And a friend doesn’t have to be perfect to be a friend. I have very old friends who will always be friends despite us not having loads in common anymore because we have become adults together and they are like family. We don’t see each other more than twice a year due to distance and text occasionally. I love them dearly.

I think then I have collected friends over time- we moved a distance away four years ago and I know of all the friends I had in the village probably two or three will stick and I will see occasionally. We had our kids together.

Then current people - new friends and neighbours. And casual work friendships which might become more over time.

I’d also have a coffee with a mere acquaintance!

I think the key is though that although I like having friends I don’t NEED them, and I don’t expect the world from them. I am lucky to have them and my life is the better for having them in it, and I really love some of them, but I need to resource my happiness from within I think.

I don’t have, and never have had, any friendships that didn’t fit the “shallow” definition here. (Although I probably could rely on most of them
in a crisis as they’re all good people.) They are essential to my wellbeing and happiness and I do wish there were more of them.

Yes I think especially as you get older (retired from work) the more casual friendships become very important.

@FacingtheSun I didn't mention "enjoying their company" because it just seems as automatic as the sun rising in the morning. But I forget some people have friends they don't like, like the Dowager Countess 😂

However, I think the fact there has been an increase in people who just don't enjoy company ever, is a big deal. It impacts on everything whether it's friendship or just being casual acquaintances.

Agree that all relationships are important. I love the incidental chats I have with the office manager or guy down the running club I fall into step with. Sometimes these sorts of relationships can be light and regular and connecting without any of the heavy

@gannett

So many of them involve taking offence when someone fails to treat you, at all times, like a member of their closest inner circle. You're going for coffee, but oh no! She invited another of her friends! The Dynamic Is Changed!
She invited you to her wedding, but only the evening do! She made plans with another mutual friend based on something they're both into and you're not - what a snub! You often just have to accept that you're not actually best friends with someone. It may come in time or it may not. What takes a friendship to the next level is often circumstance, not effort.

All of this. The “changing the dynamic” thing is particularly stifling and weird. I have never been able to understand why people have a problem with this.

I think a lot of people think friend has to mean “best friend” in a cloying, primary school sense. It’s expected that friendship has to be exclusive, like a romantic relationship, or void.

If you behave like this, as an adult woman, you are more or less guaranteed never to make any friends at all. Why have people become so controlling?

I 100% agree. I have loads of friends acquired mostly through various different jobs and then some where we’ve met, thought the other was fun and caught up irregularly but for decades. One of them came for dinner at the drop of a hat 2 days after her dad had died extremely unexpectedly. We did talk about it but she said at the time felt able to offload about finding his body and the awfulness of it all because I didn’t know him, or her mother or the area or anything. I didn’t have a preconceived anything or any interruptions. I just refilled her glass with red wine as required and gave her a hug when she left and we resumed contact as normal after. A distant friend is often a good thing.

Yes, that’s true! That’s what Mn has taught me — that’s it’s possible to think both positions are normal!

I've said it before but when you forget that MN has a particularly high proportion of misanthropes you get some odd ideas about what's normal.

Thanks for this Op - I agree. I have lots of friends but very few close friends and always wonder if I’ve missed out not having a “group” of close friends, like mean girls or something. I have a few groups where we all meet for birthdays or events some mum friends, some hobby friends, some school friends. Only one bestie.

Yes, but for some reason which I can’t fathom poor behaviour, or any pushback or criticism from husbands is tolerated but when it involves adult women it’s “drama”.

And what has struck me over and over again during all the time I’ve been on Mn is that posters who claim not to have a single friend in the world and to be unable to make any, nonetheless frequently have the social skills and persistence to have navigated dating and relationships well enough to have found someone to marry. One obvious conclusion to draw is that these people prize marriage far above friendships that they’re prepared to put themselves put for it, and then close down socially once they’ve bagged their chap.

I have friends I would ring at 3am in a crisis and actually have done and I have others who I really like but it’s just not like that.

I don’t think romantic relationships can be compare to friendships completely, men have other reasons to bother with women don’t they, basically sex and other services.

Are you me? Absolutely this. I’ve always marvelled over how people can find making a friend an impossible, unattainable goal but have been able to navigate the much more emotionally fraught business of finding a mate. I am genuinely baffled by this as I found dating, never mind building actual intimacy, much more daunting than going to the pub or to a cafe and chatting to people.

Like you I have concluded that a lot of this boils down to internalised misogyny, or just narrow expectations of life. Finding a mate takes priority over building solidarity with other women so if there is friction (or “drama” in the jargon), the relationship with the man always takes priority. Hence all the comments about “only need my husband” or “only need my little family”.

I’m always amazed by those who say they have no friends and don’t understand why, but then clearly demonstrate why by rejecting every suggestion that might help them find some, or the kind of prickly attitudes that would have most people running a mile.

People gravitate to people who are pleasant, positive and upbeat. And sometimes you have to risk rejection to move it along - from pleasantries, to lets have a drink sometime.

I say this as someone who does find social situations daunting occasionally. I’m not some extrovert worker of the room. But I’ve never had an issue meeting people and picking up friends (or good acquaintances).

Are you still on that group?

Yes, exactly! I’ve asked on more than one such thread how it is that someone can claim to find making friends so utterly impossible and so reliant on arcane rules they don’t understand, but to have successfully navigated the more fraught business of finding someone to marry. I remember at least one person saying that dating was much easier, the rules were more obvious, and the goal clearer.

But, like you, I’ve generally concluded that it’s down to an unthinking (and depressing) assumption that finding a husband is compulsory whereas friends are an optional frippery.

100% agree! I find many of threads on here absolutely baffling. Posters devastated that they are not invited to things being advised to “cut off” the non inviter - even family!

Agree some posters are stuck in the primary school / young person model of intense friendships. I don’t think that’s realistic for a normal adult with other responsibilities. I think friends are to have fun with!

Also local friends are so precious. All very well having a “ride or die” (hate that phase) “best friend” who lives 4 hours drive away but she’s not going for a dance on Saturday night or a casual last minute coffee on a Friday is she?