To absolutely loathe the increase in smear campaigns against businesses because of the halal meat debate?

[nc0007]

Well it’s not really a debate, is it? You either don’t care, or you’re absolutely seething because your meat may or may not be halal. But irrespectively of what you think about this, AIBU to think that people ‘outing’ businesses on social media about what meat they use and encouraging hundreds of people to smear them not just in posts but reviews to tank their ratings is just crazy?

Hundreds of people commenting ‘I’ve just left them a bad review on google’ because a (British owned baked potato) business extended their trading hours to their Muslim customers? People who have never bought anything from them in their life, probably geographically will never go there. Actively trying to sabotage a business because you think you’re what - some sort of activist?

And don’t get me started on the posts where people reach out to these poor customer service reps in supermarkets to ask them if the meat they sell is halal because of this mad narrative that ‘80% of supermarket meat is halal’ - where has this nonsense come from?!?! 😂 People screenshotting and commenting about how ‘Clare from Lidl’ is avoiding the question when she probably doesn’t have a scooby and the answer probably isn’t a straight yes or no either!

Madness. Utter madness. People treating this like it’s a full time job.

Those are the basic facts. Any unlabelled halal meat in supermarkets has very probably been stunned.

Kosher meat is never stunned but offcuts from kosher slaughtered animals are sold as general meat on the main market.

Ok this is fine if it’s what you prefer. Others will opt out. Every outlet and product should make it clear so people can choose.

I was thinking the same for you. I don’t care if you turn up or not, you’re giving it more airtime than someone who is actually part of the faith. Enjoy going or don’t.

Most can see communion isn’t taken by people outside the faith, and halal should be on the same level. Clear information no problem nor ‘bigot’ if people say no I’m not religious I don’t want that.

The parts of animals that are not considered to be kosher are sold on the general meat market.

This is really weird. You were the one who asked me about Holy Communion and kept haranguing me with so many questions about the one time I was invited to participate that I had to ask you why you’re giving me the third degree.

I did you the courtesy of answering your questions and you throw it back in my face by telling me I’m giving it more airtime than Christians.

You really don’t see how bizarre that is? All that just makes me think I need to ignore your questions in future.

It’s pretty simple. When people say no to communion it should be the same for no to halal.

Or if a parent says no to halal at school.

No accusations of bigotry or intolerance. No it’s not my religion and I don’t want to buy, eat, participate is always enough.

Can you point to where I’ve argued against labelling or people’s right to choose?

It’s pretty simple. I haven’t.

But that also doesn’t mean that people who bleat about halal being evil and tell blatant lies that the prayer says to kill people whilst slaughtering animals or that Muslims want the animals to suffer will get a free pass.

They will be pulled up for their bullshit. Every time.

The letter you quoted used the word intolerance. That and bigotry is what is incorrect here.

People can always choose to avoid religious ritual without those accusations. Make it clear and make it a choice without censure.

‘Very probably’.

There is also the distinction between full stun and recoverable stun.

recoverable stun means that the animal comes round from the stun to ‘hear the prayer’- otherwise, what’s the point…. But they’ve still be ‘stunned’!

…

That letter was calling for labelling so people can make an informed choice.

And many people on this thread are being intolerant. Case in point this one:

It's only acceptable halal when they cut their throats and then 'embed' the meat with prayers, and these prayers are not exactly loving or nice... they call for the killing of other people. And you eat that energy. The entire practice is gross and barbaric.

It should be labeled and advised if their meat is halal. It’s a cruel death & maybe you don’t want your meat blessed by a religion you don’t follow. All those points are valid to want to avoid. In the same way Muslims want to avoid non halal meat. People shouldn’t be attacking businesses though. They should be campaigning to the government to get legislation put in place.

It was a loaded letter. But aside from that if people were not quick to accuse with bigotry more probably would just say I’m not religious, I’m not comfortable with those methods so I’ll choose another product.

Animal welfare will still be relevant for some. It’s likely a mix between the two.

Are you ok with clear labelling in schools and other public outlets?

I think the letter was rightly making the point that the labelling should make clear what form of so called humane stunning is done to the animal "They [consumers] should be told the method of slaughter: captive bolt shooting, gassing, electrocution, drowning, trapping, clubbing or any other approved methods."

We should add live male chicks being ground to death to the list, although I’m not sure who that is fed to.

Yes, I think clear labelling everywhere is good.

Either way, it would make more sense to focus on kosher meat which is never stunned and never labelled when on the main market.

I didn’t say you directly, I don’t know if you missed the line where I started talking about a group of people who don’t choose higher welfare produce and this was clearly a continuation of that trail of thought?

Here’s the problem - I started a thread about people bombarding businesses with 1 star reviews because they may or may not serve halal meat. I did not start yet another thread on whether people think Halal or Kosher meat is ok. But posters such as yourself decide to skip the question and derail and proudly announce that you yourself choose higher welfare produce.

Well let me make this clear, if you do your due diligence and overall actively choose your produce for genuine welfare reasons then I respect you and your choices, because they are genuine and you’re looking to make an industry wide change. But for those who still choose to overlook pick the worst meat available and make it end to end all about Halal, then I cannot believe for one second that welfare is the motivator for their opposition.

It’s frequency too. I’m not sure kosher is as prevalent in outlets including public ones such as schools.

I don't care. I'd even eat kosher meat. It doesn't bother me.

Would it be OK then, by your logic, to not inform Muslims that the meat they were eating for their lunch was not halal? They would simply be eating their lunch blissfully oblivious?

The fact of the matter is that any thread can generate debate around the opinions expressed. Did you call out anyone “derailing” your thread, whose beliefs were aligned to your own?

And I don’t think this debate is only about animal welfare either. People are calling out the dubious exceptions given In laws to groups of people based on religion. It is NOT bigoted or racist to be cheesed off about that, nor to call it out. And I may not agree some forms of protest, but I have seen far, far, far worse forms of protest around other contentious issues.

As far as I am concerned, I am glad the issue is getting more attention. I think it’s high time the government ditched the two tier legal system, and mandated ever higher welfare standards, also applying to imported meat.

Your use of special is interesting here. Would you say the same re halal meat being special?

On the actual communion if schools regularly gave dc blessed wafers I’d be happy to say no thanks. And that should be an option. Same with halal meat.

I would expect Muslim parents - and any other parents of children with specific dietary requirements- to proactively seek out information about the food that their children are being fed. I wouldn't advise anyone to make assumptions.

But the point your missing is your daughter wouldn’t be given a blessed piece of bread because as an atheist and someone who hasn’t taken their first communion they’d only get it fraudulently by lying they have been. This would never be inflicted on her knowingly .

To suggest it doesn’t matter anyway is to be wilfully ignorant about others consent into participating in a religious practice. They may not want their food blessed by a pray of a religion they don’t follow if they’re atheist or not. Some people maybe as vehemently anti religion that they wish to be no part of any religious practices by eating that blessed meat unwittingly they’re being made to. Their beliefs are not any less valid just because they didn’t witness fhe ritual doesn’t mean it’s ok. They should label the meat and advertise it.

Well, I presume that Holy Communion wafers have special significance to Christians.

And likewise, I presume that halal meat has special significance to Muslims.

As far as I'm concerned, as an atheist, they are just wafers and meat with no significance at all, hence I wouldn't have any objections to eating them (if I actually ate meat, which I don't).

So blissfully oblivious wouldn't cut it in that scenario.

Some complaints about halal meat usage in mainstream food are driven by racism. That's true.

But the core complaint that only halal (and kosher) slaughter is exempt from the prestunning requirement is wholly valid. Why should other UK abattoirs be mandated to do this if it doesn't matter?

Does saying prayers while cutting an animal's throat and letting it bleed, mean it magically isn't a very frightening, painful and unnecessarily cruel death for the cow, goat or lamb? Of course not.

Significant additional suffering occurs when the animal is fully awake and conscious during the initial cut and the bleed out. The larger the animal the longer this brutal death takes.

Both the RSPCA and the British Veterinary Association actively campaign for the removal of the UK religious exemption from prestunning. These expert bodies both agree it is animal cruelty and must stop. They are right.

Also valid, is the complaint that labelling does not include this information. People aren't to be allowed to choose to vote with their feet and wallets. Why not?

There must be one law for all. It's a core enlightenment principle.

We should remove the religious exemption (both kosher and halal) from the UK requirement to pre-stun for animal slaughter. Prestunning must be required for all. No special pleading.

(Context: I'm a longstanding vegetarian.
Largely on animal welfare grounds. It's very, very easy to eat well as a vegetarian now. Plus, I'm not religious. I don't want any variety of ancient misogynistic and homophobic nonsense chanted over my food, even if it's just a bag of carrots.
Freedom from religion is also an important human right.)