To think supernanny doesn’t need a come back

[Inthenameoflove]

I’ve noticed that Jo Frost is on a bit of a PR wave at the moment. AIBU to think her brand of ‘parenting’ advice can stay in the 00s.

I’ve always found the idea of parenting experts without children somewhat suspect. To me it’s very different than being a teacher or working with children generally which I don’t think you need to be a parent to do well.

I don’t enjoy her lectures/rants about things I suspect she has very little knowledge of.

I also find it really morally questionable putting struggling kids on TV - immortalised in their hardest moment forever.

Some of her episodes are horrible. In one she made a toddler who was used to always cosleeping cry it out alone in his room with no adjustment period and he was weeping and crying ‘I’m going to die’ as he was so distressed. Awful tv ‘entertainment’

But there are ways to parent gently without being such a selfish drain on other people’s time as this woman…

Has she updated her methods?

I have a very strong suspicion, that time out/naughty step is responsible for a lot of the poor mental health we're seeing in today's young people. A whole generation of DC who were "disciplined" by well meaning parents basically telling children they were so bad parents wanted them out of sight.

This

God that's awful.

I think the MH crisis in younger people is more likely to be a combination of generally harder social circumstances, knowing they are growing up with less advantage than previous generations, incessant social media exposure and parenting which teaches them that all distress or difficulty is bad and intolerable and means they are not developing any distress tolerance and resilience skills. The opposite of your post, actually.

I disagree. I think secure attachment drives everything from self confidence through anxiety and resilience, and "banishing" children harms that.

Its not abusive

Well we will have to disagree then. Setting boundaries is important for children to feel safe. Having someone else step in when they can’t control themselves is vital. Attachment and gentle parenting, while not necessarily bad ideas at heart, are too often excuses for parents who don’t want to do the difficult bits of parenting.

I absolutely agree about boundaries and sanctions. I am not an advicate.for gentle parenting (althoguh I'm not entirely sure what it is). My children were never in any doubt at all that I meant what I said, and what was expected of them or that there would be consequences. I don't think withdrawing attention (love) is the way to implement it.

I agree @Laptoplapdoglaptray but what I think is also relevant is that up until 20 years ago the hairdresser would have strongly told off the child, as would other customers. Every time he behaved like that in a restaurant or shop or on the street, he would repeatedly be given the same message by multiple strangers. In this way he would learn appropriate behaviour and realised that what is acceptable at home with mum isnt acceptable outside the home. Our passive approach as a society is part of the issue. Yes, the mother was incompetent, but incompetent mothers (and fathers) have always existed and will always exist. Complaining about them achieves nothing. We collectively are doing ourselves a massive disservice by tip toeing around each other, as you say the impact is on society not just at home.

Seriously, do you really think ‘go away and think about what you did’ is such a damaging message? Were you never sent to your room as a child?

Actually no I wasn't and yes I do. My parents favoured a short punishment that was quickly forgotten, and because of strong boundaries and consistency rarely had to be used.

Democratic parenting? I've heard it all now.

But short punishment is exactly what things like the naughty step are…

What do you think the "naughty step" was if not a short punishment?

I think gentle parenting is often confused with permissive parenting. I was shocked the first time I saw permissive parenting in action. Child of about eight climbing out of a bedroom window and scrambling up to the roof. His mother was happy and I was on the verge of a panic attack.

If the child resisted it can drag on can't it? I seem to remember it as a minute for every year if their life and the time reset every time they get up, could easily drag on to what would seem a long time to a young child.

I have a little lad at the school l work in who has obviously never heard the word no from his parents and l can predict how he will turn out as an adult - entitled and arrogant and thinking the world revolves around him and his needs. Children meed boundaries and some of Supernanmy's ideas and strategies l think are needed.

But that's because the child has made that choice. Not because the punishment itself is designed to be long drawn out.

I don’t think this is always the case when it’s used intelligently.

If a child is being deliberately bumptious and hitting someone else say to grab a toy off them, then a message of “it’s a privilege to be around others whether they are family or friends or strangers, and if any one of us misbehaves, then we need to go away from where we are causing a bother and sit down alone and think a little and when we are calm again, we can be welcomed back” is entirely appropriate I think and I don’t see what is wrong with that at all. Especially when at home in familiar safe surroundings. And especially when parents model this too eg stepping outside to calm down for a few minutes.

Obviously if a child is playing up because they are scared or being unfairly provoked or are genuinely overwhelmed by a busy strange environment then you would not leave them alone but you might remove them and hold them until they calmed down and they could then talk to you.

Most sensible people know the difference between these two scenarios.

And most people can make it age appropriate too so a small child would sit on the bottom of the stairs for a few minutes within sight and sound of others, whereas a much older child would be sent to their room.

I honestly can see nothing emotionally damaging about that at all in a consistent loving environment where a child knows they are loved. Obviously, it could be damaging if there’s inconsistent, negligent or over indulgent parenting but that’s because of the emotionally damaging environment they are already in, not the technique itself.

I don't actually like time out very much, and particularly the way it's used on the show, I think the whole emotional rejection as punishment is very manipulative, and especially when it's dragged out until the child agrees to apologise/stay in the place they are put. However, I do think it's a misunderstanding of attachment theory to say that this harms/breaks attachment. You can't make or break attachment by a single action. It's patterns over time. This kind of thing is essentially a rupture (as in the "rupture and repair" model) and as long as it's outweighed in frequency by the more positive interactions which are warm, accepting and loving then it's unlikely to have any long lasting effect on attachment. Despite what some current parenting gurus claim, there is no actual necessity to have a repair be specific to a rupture incident so the fact that the approach maintains that the parent is right to discipline in this way and should not apologise for it does not negate the fact that the effects of a rupture in this way can be repaired (made up for) by repeated warm and positive interactions.

As I said earlier in my long/rambly post the show did not do a good job of explaining this balance, probably because the time out sections were the conflict/drama portion which provides the entertainment value in the format, likely the most financially rewarding aspect. I do think that Jo understands this balance even if she doesn't feel the need to refer to the underlying psychology of it. Whether she is aware of the difference in what she feels she is getting across to the parents vs what comes out on the TV programme, I don't know.

But you agree it can be long drawn out. So it isn't necessarily a short punishment.

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Of course in days gone by other adults would have stepped in and in fact in many places in France in that situation today, many people would still do so!

But in the absence of a “village” and extended family nowadays then it’s down to me and my dh. And if we are lucky, we can work with the school to form a team and do the same. We don’t expect anyone else to step in and do that for us.

I don’t think we can entirely blame societal changes or rely on anyone else. I agree that there have always been ineffectual parents but the solution is working with them to take responsibility and educate them, not blaming wider societal changes, however negative.

I have some sympathy with the view that no one is allowed to say anything negative about any poor behaviour in public nowadays for fear of being thought of as cruel, or for fear of retaliation, but I think the worm is turning a little now that things have become so bad, and I say that as someone who loves children, even dc who aren’t my own. and wants to see children out and about in public, not segregated off in a different train or plane compartment, or restaurant, somewhere.