NAMALT. Really? Dig deep and be honest with yourself. AMALT

[NoEggs]

I love my DH. He’s a great guy and we’ve been happy for many years.

But
He’s not perfect. Doesn’t do the laundry. Defaults to letting me make stuff happen etc. etc.

Now even if your partner is a paragon I would argue that the species ‘men’ will generally default to slightly bloody useless.

AIBU?

Yep, feminism has done so much good but so much bad at the same time. Imagine being told a traditional life is oppressive & a modern life isn’t.
having all the same pressures, responsibilities and expectations whilst ignoring the gender differences. Women now have a workload that’s more than doubled and it’s not as easy as saying men should step up especially when you have kids. Women are more nurturing meaning a child would prefer to be with mom the majority of the time. Whats more oppressive than working all day and coming jome
to the majority of the work load. Because men don’t value the things we think are important in the same way. then as a capitalist society we are then enslaved to feminism if you want to be or not. There’s no choice to become a one income family (doesn’t matter who sah) the banks have big industry has doubled its workforce. Meaning lower wages. However, this doesn’t negate the positive, to have autonomy and right to choose is priceless and it beggars belief that women never had this until relatively recently.

I just think we need to a little reset and to stop demonising each other and accept that each individual brings in different roles. The OP should expect her husband to contribute & I do believe a man should want to. So in truth without him having employment he should be contributing more to the running of the house & the care of the dog. Organising a birthday party wouldn’t be something I’d expect a man to do right. Party bags would be a waste of time in my husbands eyes. He’d probably just book an activity and take a couple of their mates and grab a McDonald’s. He wouldn’t be doing a big party as he just would think that’s a lot of stress and not much more fun than taking them go karting. they don’t need 15-30 kids to enjoy themselves. There’d be no birthday cake or mention of it being a birthday treat.

Indeed. I think a considerable number are in fact inwardly furious that they managed to convince themselves that a man's daily existence was the gold standard, only to later realise that they'd actually fought so hard to become willing slaves of capitalism.

I think that's why so many women claim to feel personally validated by their jobs involving sitting in a chair all day. To acknowledge the truth would be devastating for some!

What kind of law firm was this- corporate?

Medium sized b corp. Lots of song and dance about being ethical and generally the partners were decent people, if not a bit pious for want of a better word.

But my god was my boss a toxic cow with a maris piper on her shoulder. There was a fair bit of low key bullying from middle management/associates that seemed to be either unnoticed or conveniently ignored.

I see it with friends. Who believe that to be SAHM you’re being enslaved to your man & they’re not. But when I say aren’t you not enslaved for (insert company name to which they work) they can’t give an answer to it other than yes but by choice. So in their head it’s better to be enslaved to a company than it is to be to your family. That being part of your own family to which every member should be enslaved to isn’t a choice. To which the debtate ends and they’re all grumpy and spout something about women’s refuge and the fight we had. Which is something I don’t disagree with I just don’t agree with it in its entirety. Give and take most women have as much autonomy now as they did then. Which is pretty much living in a certain way not by choice but by need. The need to work, the need to fulfill your biological needs & for men in truth life has arguably got easier. Their burden has been halved & shared with women. They may do more round the home but their perspective of what’s important and what’s not is different. Say what a child wears. There’s jokes based on stereotypes about if I let my husband dress our kid they’d come out the house with wellies, the top they slept in and a santas hat in June. It’s extreme but funny as it’s partly true. Men are most likely to achieve the goal of getting child up fed, teeth brushed and out the door. Child is happy job done. Women would say this is lazy and child should be appropriately dressed (I would agree) so we would tend to have a morning ticking off what dad has done but with added arguments and kid not so happy. We then look at who’s wrong, when the truth is no one is right or wrong it’s just about perspective. If a friend gets into a new relationship I always give the advice of start as you mean to go on. If at early doors you realise he doesn’t put his shit away & that bugs you address it immediately if he doesn’t change you may want to consider this before having a family with him. The warning signs will be there & if you don’t align save yourself the grief. Having a baby with someone who does align is still hard and puts strain on relationships. So either learn to live with it or avoid it

I see, yes - I don't expect female bosses of law firms are more likely to be kind/ethical than male ones. That's part of the reason the US girl boss trend of the 2010s became a joke because several of the feted ones turned out to be toxic.

. You believe work is slavery, I assume for both sexes.

OK, you could say that it's slavery to be dependent on your work for your living, though that seems dramatic to me. It also seems dramatic to claim SAHMs are slaves, as your friends do.

The advantage working at a paid job does have is that if you lose one there is at least some prospect of getting another if you have skills (in this economy, though...another matter). Whereas if you're a SAHM and your husband leaves, the situation is much more complex in terms of options, esp if you haven't worked for a long time etc

Being a sahm is fine. Being a sahm with unequal access to finances because your husband doesn’t value your unpaid labour is not. Being a single mum in financial hardship because you’re cheating ex never provided for your long term future and you relied on them to be around for ever is also not. The last two seem worryingly common.

There’s a saying: whether the jug hits the stone or the stone hits the jug, it’s always bad for the jug. Sahm relationships are uneven, and the woman is always the jug in those relationships when something goes wrong. Relationships go wrong as often as not and it’s foolish not to be prepared for the possibility that they might.

'Give and take most women have as much autonomy now as they did then. Which is pretty much living in a certain way not by choice but by need. The need to work, the need to fulfill your biological needs'

• what do you mean by 'then'? If you mean pre-70s there was legal sex & pay discrimination and earlier on, marriage bars. The credit card signature issue, as well as legal marital rape, among other things.

I think it is accurate to say women do have more options job-wise due to the removal of these laws.
Yes, women don't have the choice to be a SAHM unless their spouse earns a lot now. So less choice in that sense, work-wise.

But otoh women do have more opportunities if they do want to work. And pre-1970s, women who were single by choice or prematurely widowed or lesbian etc still needed to work, and had fewer options due to the above issues.

Indeed.

I think it's important that people have the ability to make their own choices, poor choices included. But I've never seen work as particularly fulfilling even if I mostly enjoy my job. I mean, most of us wouldn't continue if we won the lottery.

It's just a means to an end and it's kinda depressing IMO that the vast majority of us only get relative freedom once we're objectively old. I could literally fill several lifetimes with my hobbies as I'm the type that likes give them as much as I can. And many of them conflict.

Like I'm at an elite level in strength training (180kg deadlift/almost 3x bodyweight) but starting that years ago tanked my stamina when training mma/kickboxing, so I had to choose between them. And I'd love to spend more time getting better at the production element of music but that's a totally sedentary hobby which doesn't really benefit the above - makes me incredibly stiff sitting around for ages. And I'd also love to start writing stuff again and reading more but just don't have time. Even getting into philosophy is potentially a massive rabbithole and something I've only scratched the surface of so far.

Fuck spending my life poncing around in an office to help pay for a shareholder's new yacht, talking about 'reaching out' to Derek in accounts to see if he's got the bandwidth to circle back and run it up the flagpole. Grim. 🤮

I sympathise with wanting more hobby time, especially when they conflict like that...

I'm not sure that most people wouldn't continue work if they won the lottery. I think most would volunteer or maybe work part time. Hobbies are great but I think most people want a sense of contribution to wider community and wider purpose (unless hobby already provides that!).

I think people who feel a vocation would probably continue at least in some way, as well as people who do something like singing/dance/sport etc, though of course those often have limits on how long you can do them.

completely agree, there’s certain vulnerabilities to being a SAHM to. You’re easily trapped in an abusive relationship, you’re more likely to become isolated and your purpose after the kids grow up may become a problem especially if your household isn’t financially able to provide you freedom to do as you wish. This is why I believe feminism has been captured by capitalism. do I think all those women asking for equality in law meant that majority of people couldn’t live on one wage, no I don’t. I think they wanted autonomy, the right to have a say on who applies the law of which we live. I think they wanted to be paid a fair wage, a chance of a better career and to contribute to society in a way they wish. They may not want to be mothers or just a mom. However, it’s not been as successful as people say. Who does it benefit more telling young girls that waiting until they’re in their 30’s to have babies? Does it really benefit the woman, just as your body is getting ready to end your fertility days, collagen, hormone production all slows down & just as this happens society and not medical professionals says have your babies now. If you’re not unlucky like some of my friends have been, you get pregnant easily but you’re now treated as geriatric mother where you’re being monitored more closely than someone in their mid-late 20’s and told the odds though still small goes up that your child will have a disability. Feminism I believe has been more good than bad, no one is enslaved to anyone. You can choose to leave a job, your family & live completely selfishly as you please. But there’s trade offs to it all. You have consequences to these actions and it’s up to the individual what they value. However. My point was women didn’t have a choice back then & it’s arguable to say they don’t have a choice now. But in the context of the OP problem it’s relevant to how she’s finding her position at this point in regards to feminism. She’s working hard and he doesn’t appear to pull his weight in a way she sees fit. Now organising a birthday party may just not be his priority. He probably didn’t care if the kids have a party or not. I know plenty of dads who don’t see the point, much rather would take 1 or 2 mates to a theme park instead and grab fast food. They see it as less stress and more fun, women tend to take these tasks on themselves and then get frustrated when left with it. However, being at home all day and she coming home to do anything other than sharing a parenting role is a bit shitty

Of course it's two different things. It's a kind of Jimmy Saville logic - do good works and think that gets a pass for the bad shit.

I didn't say women "couldn't possibly" work in hostile male-dominated environments - they can and they do - but there are reasons that fewer women are there, which are not ladybrains don't rescue people.

I think it's somewhat funny that you've been holding up the fire service as this amazing example of how men benefit society, while at the same time, it's also this boys club with institutionalised misogyny and racism.

Completely this, I get if someone has a dynamic job that contributes to society be it a public sector role like in teaching, medicine or law (albeit I know a few police officers & teachers that loath their jobs) & even someone successful in the corporate world getting a buzz over securing a deal that they also benefit from financially as part of a bonus may see a benefit over working than not, but I have these arguments with people who work in very admin based jobs telling me a SAHM that I’ve got it wrong. Yet we’re not arguing in my house on who’s doing the washing up. It’s me. I don’t mind. I’d rather wash the dishes of a meal I’ve had time to prepare and make sure is nutritional as possible with little to no stress. I don’t see that as weak like some of my friends think it is. On the weekends my husband if not mowing the lawn, cleaning the cars will help me in the house. He wi sort out cupboards, do this dishwasher , walks the dog & if we have no plans we will go for a meal or walk the dog to the pub. We have a lovely life. I think this should be the norm. A standard of living that is affordable on one wage & it used to be. That choice is freedom. People mistake the most important thing money buys. Money buys your freedom. With money you can free up your time to pursue your hobbies. Without it those hobbies are nothing more than dreams. I hope you do win the lottery

Of course women can be unpleasant and bullying in the workplace.

The difference is the word institutionalised. Where the workplace is set up in such a way as to favour men and disadvantage other groups, not always consciously. It's systemic, not individual.

Most women don’t want to work in some jobs. How many female, bin collectors, road workers, builders, hgv drivers & yes firefighters do you see? In truth how many people if stuck in a burning building would be more relieved to see a man coming to give you a fireman’s lift to a woman. I know if my family members where in there and I saw a woman going in over a man I’d be concerned about her ability to lift my 6ft 2 husband and get him out safely. If I wanted a heroic job like this I’d probably have my doubts about my capabilities to do it well. So that’s why women tend to bend towards nursing & vice versa. Not many people are comfortable with male nursery workers, carers or nurses, it’s totally reasonable for a patient to request a certain gender to do intimate care. does this make people inherently sexist? I don’t think so

Is it "women don't want to" or is it the wider social context and systems, though?

I see a woman bin-collector every Tuesday.

The more we work to remove systemic barriers, hostile environments and sexist stereotypes, the more likely it is we'll see women's numbers in those areas increase.

i don’t know many people who want fo do any of it. But I would suggest a man would rather be a bin collector than a cleaner. Vice versa for women. It’s not about social norms. It’s about what appeals. Like it or not there’s a difference within the sexes that hasn’t just been socially engineered. Look at parenting. My husband would throw our kids hign in the air and catch them. I’d wince when he did it & had to look away. My equivalent play would be to blow raspberries on their tummy. In houses up and down the country which mumsnet forums will confirm, women are more nurturing where men are more matter of fact. I tell you what society systems has done is pit one against the other. It’s they’re wrong and we’re right. Whilst if thought of properly and with nuance is to get comfort from mom & context from dad. Women also do better academically, in truth on paper women should be out competing men on all aspects. But jobs that are physical and riskier is something we don’t see women thriving. I would say the same for male nursery nurses & I’d say there’s even more stigma that is sexist there because I think a nursery would find it harder to compete with other nurseries that had no male staff in getting clients

What you're describing IS the way we create social norms and stereotypes.

There’s an element of social norms but not wholly. We are biologically different for a reason. This is backed up by the gender roles animals play. From lions to the praying mantis. From social animals to solitary ones. They all follow a behavioural pattern relevant to their species and gender. Our moods are part dictated by estrogen and progesterone, men’s are testosterone. Why having to much or not enough tips the balance from what’s normal and what’s not. You could try and indoctrinate a
whole generation of women to become firefighters and the truth is the standard would drop & to boot the male to female interest in it will still show a disparity. That’s a fact. You could do the same for men with caring and again the standards would drop.

stereotypes exist for a reason. Sexual crimes aren’t socially engineered there’s not a spate of fustrated female wannabe sex offenders just not carrying out their crimes because they’re women. It’s a perversion that’s dominates inside some men. The need to control, dominate, abuse and hold power. Women can have rhe same needs but it emerges as something else. It’s a predominantly male problem that’s been stigmatised for years and yet hasn’t been bred out despite society norms

When you say this : ' Whilst if thought of properly and with nuance is to get comfort from mom & context from dad. ' - what do you mean by 'get context from dad'?

i don’t think I’m alone in this as I’ve seen it plenty of times with parents. If a child falls a mom is more likely to run over and comfort sometimes only then does the child cry. But we have a more urgent need to make sure they’re ok. A dad may notice the fall and then react to the child’s reaction. When hurt or ill my kids and like most kids want their mom. Very few will opt for dad. Now for advice it’s always dad. Not that he gives any different advice to me I think it’s how he delivers it. Less emotional. My daughter was bullied at school. And the way me & hubby wanted to deal with it clashed. I was in& out the school trying to get her the help she I thought she needed (which practically was to change the perpetrators behaviour). Impossible to do as I have no influence over that child. I’m doing nothing more than moaning and whinging. My husbands idea was to tackle our daughter. Make her more robust, build her up & tell her she can only be upset if she allows herself. I had a friend who one day say the same thing to me. Stop with this, you’re not helping her. She worded it differently to hubby but she said I was validating all the things being said to my daughter by giving it power. If going in hasn’t worked why keep doing it. They aren’t going to throw this kid out the school. They’re a nasty shit and you’d be better to teaching your daughter how to deal with them as it won’t be the only time she’ll have to. So I stepped back. It would comfort her when she came home and dad would speak to her if she mentioned it first. She stopped reacting and sure enough & said something like how that’s nice when he said something mean or thanked him. He got bored and stopped and she then felt empowered because she had sorted it herself. I thanked my friend who said it was her husband that said it, her son was telling his dad what happened and he said it to his son and it hit because she would have done what I was doing.

Also, how many men rescue women when at work (fire service, police etc) but are nevertheless abusive to the women in their private lives, behind closed doors?

I've read that three times and it still doesn't make any grammatical sense.

But hey, keep carpet bombing threads with lengthy word salads in the hope everyone gives up from sheer exhaustion, and then you can bask in the sense that you've owned the feminazis eh... 🙄

Yeah, I saw my first bin woman the other day and gave a little cheer.