NAMALT. Really? Dig deep and be honest with yourself. AMALT

[NoEggs]

I love my DH. He’s a great guy and we’ve been happy for many years.

But
He’s not perfect. Doesn’t do the laundry. Defaults to letting me make stuff happen etc. etc.

Now even if your partner is a paragon I would argue that the species ‘men’ will generally default to slightly bloody useless.

AIBU?

I'm unconvinced that selfishness is at all gendered.
Well said @gannett . Because it truly isn't.

Good point re theatre : I love plays & this had kind of eluded me, I suppose because often classic (& also modern) plays may centre around an interesting female character but overall still have more speaking parts for men

https://www.laurengunderson.com/press-projects/theaters-audiences-are-mostly-female-why-not-the-roles

Re gender pay gap, this is largely due to women being more likely to be in caring professions, which ties into your earlier point about these being devalued.

🤣 Is Julie Imelda Marcos?

Only joking, I agree people who are shopaholics are annoying. How common is this (ie excessive spending on clothes/shoes, esp when you haven't got the money to cover it?).

I wonder if online shopping has made this more likely to happen since you can scroll infinitely with endless choice. Not just for clothes, but for books/DVDs etc too

First of all @exhaustDAD I apologise for my inconsistency. In my defence it is difficult to remember the details of a discussion started on a late (for me) bus journey home after a long and somewhat trying day several days ago.

That aside I am not sure you and I will ever agree. I love and enjoy the men in my life (friends, work, family) very much. They are by and large great people. I have given birth to a few (now) young adult men and I trust that my husband and I have been successful in instilling in them the values that will make them good and productive members of society.

But the women in my life. The women are amazing. I really couldn’t care how many shoes they buy from a limited budget (this reference is somewhat reductive of you imo but let’s pass on that). Many of the these woman have overcome feckless partners but many have not. They’ve just put others first emotionally.

Of course we love in our own image. When as at my age your body is seeping oestrogen and everything sags I find real solace in the women. They get it. I love them. The sisterhood is not always supportive but the collective knowledge of shared trauma through years of patriarchal oppression is in us all whether we like it or not.

So, argue for as long as you like that I’m wrong to think that ALMALT. I respect your opinion but every inch of my life experience does not support it.

Thanks @Carla786 - yes the theatre thing has bothered me for years. Once you see it.....

As for pay gap, while the split between types of profession is undoubtedly a factor, its not all of it. Like the issue in the council (Birmingham?) where there was a massive law suit and the women were found to have been systematically discriminated against.

But its more than that. The NHS is overwhelmingly staffed by women but senior management is dominated by men. And in private business, the higher you go the more unequal the split between male and female is, even if it is more even in the lower ranks. Who is prepared and mentored for promotion, who is considered to "have what it takes" - all of those things are factors here too.

There is really no need to apologise, @NoEggs , please. I get it, but you have to admit, somewhat flip-flopping between arguments is not a sure sign of being confident in being right. It is rather clear that we both know you are prejudiced towards men, you just know that it is not entirely acceptable to just flat out say it, reasons, rationale be damned. God forbid you agree with my conclusions above, based on your own rationale which said: (women are/can be) "perceived to be ‘better’ on certain measures". This was something you stepped on, and I was just taking your own logic, I asked if based on it the same could be said to men? But no, no, that would be too far. Your own logic, mind you. But it's not great any more, because it supports the idea of we all being equally flawed, having different strengths and weaknesses as individuals. No, because the sisterhood gets what it's like to seep in oestrogen. Solid.

Look.. If you just had to point at the throwaway, surface-level example of buying too many shoes and say that "...the reference is somewhat reductive of you imo but let’s pass on that", there is truly nothing to say. 1) When you say "but let's pass on that", you literally did the opposite. 2) How reductive of me, but you had no issue with the reductive nature of the absolute moron of the husband not being able to start the washing machine. No-no, that is fine, that fits. 3) Nothing else of the entire chain of thoughts you felt the need to touch, but the throwaway example of a FICTIONAL (!) woman's shoe buying habits.. That is.. wow. Somehow I am still amazed by the mental gymnastics present in this thread. Would it have been a whole lot better if I chose something more complex and not as reductive? I don't want to speak for you, of course, but I'm willing to bet the winning argument would be the same: Women in your life are awesome. The irony is that I don't even doubt that, not at all. I have amazing women in my life, as well, inspiring all day, every day.

"The sisterhood is not always supportive but the collective knowledge of shared trauma through years of patriarchal oppression is in us all whether we like it or not."
Wait. They are not always supportive? As a group, in general? Uh-oh. I thought, in general they are all about empathy and selflessness. What gives? Let me guess - even when the sisterhood is not supportive, that is also patriarchy, somehow, I am sure.

Let me guess - even when the sisterhood is not supportive, that is also patriarchy, somehow, I am sure.

Its called internalized misogyny.

I saw a great thing over the weekend on Tik Tok explaining patriarchy. I wont quote the whole thing, but it started by saying that patriarchy was men having their boot on womens necks, feminism says take your boot of womens neck and internalized misogyny was women saying they liked having a boot on their necks.

prejudice
/ˈprɛdʒʊdɪs/
Prejudice is an unjustified, typically negative attitude, belief, or feeling toward individuals based solely on their membership in a specific group

@exhaustDAD there’s quite a few pages of posts that would quibble with the ‘unjustified’.

I am not prejudiced. I am a realist. We women are good like that.

I agree with that but add the caveat that not all bad treatment of women BY women is internalised misogyny. After all, men can treat other men badly without being misandrist.

On average women as I said in pp do generally show higher in-group solidarity so I think we shouldn't overestimate the effects of internalised misogyny, though it is important to notice.

Yes @NoEggs , while it is true that there are people of both sexes who fall short, I think most women have had to put up with a whole lot more crap through their lives.

I was wondering about something this morning - what the explanation or opinion is to the following according to those who are dead-set on one entire group of people being inferior to them..

For a minute there I thought you'd got it @exhaustDAD. But no.🤦‍♀️

What exactly was I supposed to get if you don't mind me asking?

"I am not prejudiced. I am a realist. We women are good like that."

I am so sorry to burst your bubble, but blindly - yes, blindly - sticking to your own group being superior to another one is not being a realist. It is being biased. At the very least. You - the realist - have changed your arguments - because you forgot what you made up to fit the "women are more perfect" idea at an earlier point in time. Yeah, that's the mark of a true realist attitude. Also, completely disregarding valid points entirely in any chunk of text is also a wonderful tool of realism of its purest form - the wonderful irony is that one of my points were literally your own, and it was suddenly not good any more.

Copying in the phonetics transcription is very useful, thank you, now I know how you pronounce it properly. This was certainly... a choice. That put me in my place. Always works when someone runs out of reasoning. How very realist.

Go on, as a realist... Enlighten me, living in a civilised part of the world now, in 2026, what unearned privileges does your son get compared to your daughter now in terms of opportunities of education, freedom... Not compared to your great-great-great-great grandmother in the past, not compared to a kid in South Korea, but your son compared to your daughter.

Agree mainly. I think there's still a lot of societal misogyny but imo patriarchy is a more narrow term which fits societies where women are legally disenfranchised etc

@exhaustDAD I am sorry that you are so irate. I have a picture in my head of an angry man with a red face jumping up and down stamping his feet ‘why won’t she listen???’ I’m sad that I may be the cause of it.

As for being a realist let’s agree to differ. Maybe I’m a surrealist. It’s pretty subjective. In my opinion doggedly sticking to the exact same points in an argument through thick and thin shows a lack of imagination or perhaps a determined focus on the main thing. Or maybe both.

You’re not going to get me to agree with you and why would you want to? Neither you nor I are
going to change the world with a little bit of verbal jousting on a female focused internet forum.

Mea culpa to most of the sins of inconsistency that you accuse me of but wouldn’t it be a boring argument if one just repeated the same thing over and over again?

Lovely image (in your head) can't say it sounds fun though @NoEggs . In all honesty, it is an extremely interesting discussion in my eyes, rather than something that makes me angry. In general, I am very difficult to make angry, for that you would actively need to cause harm to someone/something, or something along those lines, maybe. But let's see - An attempt at a personal jab again - check, and zero reflection on any of the points above (again) - check and check. Do you know how I imagine you on the other side of this? I do not. Because I am not an emotionally immature child that sinks down to personal jabs. This thread now is interesting and entertaining, because while I enjoy conversing with people who may have other points of view compared to mine, it is rare to witness such misguided way of reasoning, it is a perverted curiosity really that makes me respond, I guess.

I mean, it is borderline hilarious now that the next level is actually disagreeing on, nay, changing what being a realist is like. You know that realists base their points on, what's the word... what's the word... realism (?). And that is objective, not flexible, not open for interpretation. Do you know what is real? That men and women are more similar than different, and they are both flawed, in different ways. That is a given. Objective and true. You literally make a statement, and take it apart with your next sentence, it is genuinely entertaining to read. And with an unexpected leap, we hop onto - nobody could have guessed - Surrealism. I genuinely did not see that coming, a comment ago we were dying on the realism hill. And what makes this mental stretch almost as tasty as a black forest gateau is that you literally chose the one that seeks to bypass logic and lean onto the irrational aspects of life. Glorious. Right after "I AM A REALIST". What are we next, my realist friend? Sorry, surrealist, it's hard to follow all the changes of super steady reasoning.

At this point, of course I don't want to convince you, I might be silly, but not that misguided... There is no point in trying that. But in all honesty - spectacular. All of this.

@exhaustDAD I am not on Mumsnet to reflect profoundly on anyone’s points. What would be the fun in that?

I started a thread after a day which I’d rather not have lived through. That thread expressed my deeply felt but fairly lighthearted belief about mankind. I’ve learned quite a lot but my original belief has not changed. Women rock.

That really is the beginning, middle and end of the story.

As is pretty obvious from the way I express myself facts and logic are not the lodestone of my life. I love to challenge, chop and change and most of all laugh at myself. This thread has provided me with all that and more.

Thank you

One way or another, I hope that the day you are referring to as one you'd rather not have lived through brought you something you managed to conquer or turn around, @NoEggs
Take care of yourself...

I was wondering about something this morning - what the explanation or opinion is to the following according to those who are dead-set on one entire group of people being inferior to them..

@exhaustDAD we live in a world made and run by those who are dead-set on one entire group of people being inferior to them..
Men.

We were talking about the entirety of the two sexes as groups, the 4+ billion women and 4+ billion men, not a select 1% who own everything and do as they please, @TooBigForMyBoots . The ones you think of do not care about me the same way they don't care about you.

Go on, as a realist... Enlighten me, living in a civilised part of the world now, in 2026, what unearned privileges does your son get compared to your daughter now in terms of opportunities of education, freedom... Not compared to your great-great-great-great grandmother in the past, not compared to a kid in South Korea, but your son compared to your daughter.

I'd like the answer to this too. Also any evidence that males are fundamentally more selfish than females - I certainly dont see that reflected in the teens and young adults in my life.

I am talking about the majority of the 4+billion men. And a sizeable proportion of the 4+billion women who are seen as inferior to them.

I have no evidence this is true..My partner is a star. Some men are useless and it's beyond me, leaving aside domestic violence, why women will tolerate men who won't pull their weight. From my perspective and experience, these threads just come off as sexism..

So suddenly it becomes convenient not to lump all men together and instead divide them into categories and ask what firefighters have to do with male murderers? Yup, that was the sound of the goalposts being moved. 🤣

If you're going to bang on about how terrible men are for murdering women it's entirely relevant to point out that they actually rescue many times more women. So really it's probably more accurate to describe men as saviours than violent miscreants lol. You just can't handle it.

Carry on making excuses about 'hostile work environments' and how women couldn't possibly work in male dominated sectors. I'll just carry on driving my 100 ton ADT up the haul road while you moan about unequal representation. 😉 Some might call it talking the talk but not walking the walk.

And I'd say without doubt my most hostile workplace was working for a law firm with a load of stuck up bitches. Seems a fairly common experience on here. Can link some threads for educational purposes if you want?

Best one was the one which turned into a massive bitchfest about whether women were actually supportive of each other. 😆 The irony seemed entirely lost on most posters. Men are generally so much easier to work with. Much less interested in drama or having a mardy over some petty nonsense.