NAMALT. Really? Dig deep and be honest with yourself. AMALT

[NoEggs]

I love my DH. He’s a great guy and we’ve been happy for many years.

But
He’s not perfect. Doesn’t do the laundry. Defaults to letting me make stuff happen etc. etc.

Now even if your partner is a paragon I would argue that the species ‘men’ will generally default to slightly bloody useless.

AIBU?

No man is ‘perfect’, of course not. But not all men are rapists either.

Are you saying that ‘not being a rapist’ is the baseline for being a good man? Surely we can hope for a little more from our menfolk.

That's just being disingenuous. The latter is obviously a response to the overwhelming number of posts here that claim they are.

I agree about average sex differences but I think this is a bit too much of a sweeping statement.

'the things that make men great at pushing the world forward: risk-taking, obsessive focus on one topic, high testosterone levels, aggression targeted towards fighting just wars and so on'

Male aggression certainly has been channelled in just ways but it's not automatically directed only towards just wars (as far too many recent wars prove). Men in the armed forces fighting a war may arguably often not have enough info to know of it's a just cause or not. The men at the top who start wars aren't usually physically fighting themselves.

I would also note that the world is fuller & fuller of female politicians who take an aggressive, sometimes even extreme, stance on nationalism, war, identity, patriotism etc. Examples: Marine Le Pen, Giorgia Meloni, Mette Fredricksen, Isabela Diaz Ayuso (Spain), Alice Weidel (and before her, Franka Potente led the AFD), Afroditi Lantinopoulou (Greece), Roberta Metsola (Malta), Sana Takaichi (Japan), Kim Yo-Jong (North Korea), Samia Suluthu (Tanzania), Maria Corina Machado (Venezuela ofc!) Etc etc. They don't seem to be gentle kittens...

This is an interesting post. I'll address this point first : 'If women want men to be more rounded then women should be taking on all the dirty manual tasks that men do.'

• which men? As your own point indicates, large numbers of men also employ men to do manual tasks for them, it's not only women who outsource manual labour like plumbing, electrical stuff & roofing.

I think women should do more manual tasks though, I'll develop this in my next post.

Exactly!

I mainly agree.

I do also think there are physical limits to some manual labour. Plumbing (I think) less so, but some jobs (at least at some levels) require a level of physical strength that women are less likely to have on average. Pp ignores that in her post.

Exactly, the Charlize Theron film North Country is based on a real awful case of sexual harassment in the mining industry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Country_(film)

This was especially bad but you have had & sometimes still get similar in building, police , army etc. I mean, it's not a wholly unfair coincidence that builders were traditionally stereotyped as pervy....

Most posters who agree with the OP are imo only considering their relationships with the dh not the bigger world.
This again tends to be a female trait

• you mean personalising/lack of big picture thinking? I do think some posts are disregarding that in some cases the DH is working longer hours & that his work is not necessarily a picnic either. But at the same time, I think the thread isn't about marital relationships so much as men's behaviour to women generally. I agree the good things men do towards humanity generally should be included too though on the thread.

And if you look at male forums,,there's loads of threads complaining about women, often in terms of dating/relationships and ignoring the things women dominate like caring & teaching etc

No one is suggesting they are.

but they all benefit from misogyny which might be a reason why there aren’t many up in arms trying to solve it

I'm raising two boys and I'm not teaching them to hate themselves for being male, just like I don't teach my daughter to hate herself for being female. They are however well-schooled in things like power dynamics, consent, misogyny etc. And all of them are just as prone to not picking up after themselves, a constant battle I wage regardless of which gender child is slacking.

My mum is a gifted woman who thinks my dad is useless. He does a hell of a lot around the house, more than she does (through circumstance rather than choice), but because he does it differently to how she would he's an idiot apparently. She thinks she's in the right simply by virtue of being a woman, and he's a man so he obviously sucks. She doesn't see that she's being abusive and a huge bitch to him, and she doesn't realize that most if not all their adult children would support him if he decided to leave.

Do some men suck? Yes. Do all or even most of them suck? I'm going with a no simply because I have fought gender stereotypes my whole life, so there's no way I'm forcing them on anyone else. I will say some women have a hard time seeing their own behaviour with clear eyes.

It's not about claiming most men are rapists. It's the claim that most men don't actively stand up and call out men who are rapey or rape apologists.

Tbf most men wouldn't be able to do this, especially not city types who don't work in the trades. What you just described sound like skilled activities so its fair game that you don't know how to do them. Booking the lunches and clubs are basic tasks that he should be able to pick up if necessary. I think this is what the OP is getting at. There are plenty of simple household tasks and mental load activities like the school lunches that men could help out with......but they don't, even if both partners work full time. Men's free time is their own, women's free time is taken up with chores and life admin. Men are selfish is what it boils down to. I've never met one that isn't including my own dad who I love dearly and who does actually help my mum with chores.

Delicious response
🔥

Getting the links after being asked for them out of genuine curiosity? Not sure what makes it delicious...

But I don’t know how to fix a burst pipe or how to deal with a collapsing cob wall or how to re-grade the drive so that it doesn’t flood every time it rains.

Nor do most people.🤷‍♀️. All you have to do is find the people who can fix that stuff. How is that different to organising anything else @mindutopia?

This assumption that men know how to do practical stuff can be pretty humiliating for men who do not, in fact, know how to do practical stuff.

Thinking of my most recent ex who, for various reasons, thought he had to project an air of manly authority about Stuff to impress me, and would attempt to do things like fixing cupboard doors (something I am perfectly well equipped to do myself) and just fail badly.

Or his knowledgeable pronouncements about gardening, God help me..."Ooh be careful, looks like you've got Japanese knotweed over there...." (sucks teeth)
"That is not Japanese knotweed Nigel, it's vervain. It looks nothing like Japanese knotweed what so fucking ever" 🙄

Yes, unless they've actually been taught this practical stuff growing up or in work, they're no more naturally knowledgeable than untrained women are.

But if he's relying on watching a YouTube video or a set of instructions, so can a woman. With modern tools, like a decent electric drill, if she chooses to, there's no reason a woman can't do the DIY - or do the research to project-manage bigger issues.

Quite a lot of blokes I know seem to start DIY projects, like ripping stuff out with great enthusiasm - and then they leave it unfinished and looking like shit, either because they never knew what they're doing in the first place or it's too hard or they get bored, I don't know.

Apart from the obvious physical differences in that men tend to be stronger, taller etc I cannot see why men and women can’t be equal in terms of tasks.

The reality is that they are often not. No matter how super your Nigel is I bet that the chances are that, given a choice, he will prioritise self over community/family in a way that most (not all) women do not. It is impossible not to make generalisations in this discussion so please accept my acknowledgement that this is such a one.

I’m a massive proponent of the theory that this inclination is biological in origin. Doesn’t make it right though.

And for full disclosure my Nigel makes me incredibly happy and we work well together but that doesn’t mean that I am not unobservant of the imbalances in our relationship perpetuated by societal norms (especially my MIL).

edited to include a missing word

Out of curiosity - without meaning to stir anything - @NoEggs does your Nigel know how you feel about the imbalances?

Good question.

Yes. As I constantly reiterate we have an excellent relationship and make a good team. I luvs him tons. Doesn’t mean that I can’t make an observation about the state of mankind on anonymous internet chat forum though.

Absolutely! No questions about that. That's what it is for. I didn't mean reiterating you two being a good team, but telling him that you feel that you do more than him, and there's an imbalance.

I understand. That’s what the ‘yes’ was for.

He knows how I think but it’s actually not really a criticism. More an observation. I’m not even saying that we should be equal.

I was brought up in a very pro female family. I admire strong women and actually believe that in pretty much anything other than physical strength women are stronger. Absolutely doesn’t mean I hate men or even despise them. I’m pretty impressed with their ability to be top dog although in very many cases they are mediocre. If only women had thought of creating a patriarchy to support them in every area of life.

You’ll be wondering why DH stays with me. The answer is simple. I look great in an anorak and I know where the stopcock is.

Ah, I see. I misread it.
I don't wonder why your DH would stay with you, why would I?
So, we have something in common - admiring strong women. I consider my mother and grandmother strong women, my mother raised me, best as she could on her own, my grandmother had to endure a lot and be strong, and I admire my wife for being one, too. Many of her friends (F) couldn't deal with half the trauma she had growing up, and be so well-rounded, overall amazing person as an adult.

Where our views separate is when it comes to those sweeping generalisations. Taking any emotion out of it, I advocate for no side being superior to the other, whereas the other view is about "women being better (stronger)". There are women out there who can be stronger than some men, and men out there who can be stronger then some women. And no amount of "but my closest friends are awesome ladies" can overwrite the reality of that, I think.

With modern tools, like a decent electric drill, if she chooses to, there's no reason a woman can't do the DIY - or do the research to project-manage bigger issues.

No reason at all - the vast majority will simply choose not to, though.