NAMALT. Really? Dig deep and be honest with yourself. AMALT

[NoEggs]

I love my DH. He’s a great guy and we’ve been happy for many years.

But
He’s not perfect. Doesn’t do the laundry. Defaults to letting me make stuff happen etc. etc.

Now even if your partner is a paragon I would argue that the species ‘men’ will generally default to slightly bloody useless.

AIBU?

Nope. Mine is emotionally intelligent, proactive, interesting, and interested in me. Inspires me to be a better person in my relationship. Has been like this for over a decade. Because I wanted to marry someone like that. I don't think the relationship I have is rare, as I know many just like it.

I know women often find themselves in relationships where their male partner changes/manipulates, but I'm convinced that a lot of women who complain about disappointing husbands simply get a kick from playing "poor Cinderella".

Research-based? I'd be interested to read that, purely out of curiosity, would you mind pointing me to where I can find it?
I hear you, and understand where you are coming from, but at the same time can't help but notice that no matter how we slice it, it will boil down to the individuals' actions, within their own relationships. I sure as hell don't identify with this notion of trying to get away with doing as little as possible to my wife's expense. I am not saying this to portray myself as someone "good", that is not up to me to decide about myself, I just think that it is such a grim mindset, like some corporate soul-destroying work relationship.

DH is not perfect, he and I are both a bit slobby and untidy. Housework gets done by both of us, gets done when it gets done. He does most of the cooking, puts the bins out, does laundry. He’s not good at DIY. But he is kind, caring, funny, has my back and is brilliant emotional support. We are very happy together and have been for 35 years.

OP you seem disappointed in your DH, even though he’s a great guy and you’ve been happy together for many years. That’s sad. Perfect men don’t exist.

https://www.progressive-policy.net/publications/press-release-cpps-latest-report-finds-caring-responsibilities-are-disproportionately-impacting-women-in-the-uk

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/childcare-shared-care-and-well-being-outcomes-for-families/sharing-of-childcare-and-well-being-outcomes-an-empirical-analysis

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/women-doing-more-childcare-under-lockdown-but-men-more-likely-to-feel-their-jobs-are-suffering

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66866879

https://yougov.com/en-gb/articles/43506-men-and-women-disagree-how-much-they-contribute-ho

https://www.starlingbank.com/news/women-report-doing-majority-of-household-tasks-in-relationships/

https://www.understandingsociety.ac.uk/news/2024/07/24/working-from-home-equals-more-housework-for-women-but-not-for-men/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/social-fabric/202501/gender-inequality-in-the-division-of-housework-persists

https://learningpartnership.org/blog/weight-care-womans-lifelong-responsibility

https://www.durham.ac.uk/business/news-and-events/news/2024/march/decision-making-at-home-hinders-women-in-workplace/

Have you really never seen this stuff? If not, you might want to ask yourself why.

Women are free to join now, but the emergency services can be quite hostile work environments.

There's a lot of information about bullying, sexism and a "boys club" mentality if you care to look. Women report being poorly treated, excluded and even assaulted by colleagues. Same goes for the armed forces.

And socialisation plays a part here as well - girls are still not expected to be as physical or as assertive as boys, and get guided towards other professions.

With respect, @exhaustDAD this kind of reasoning

it will boil down to the individuals' actions, within their own relationships.

Is very similar to the stuff I used to hear trotted out to explain why women earn less on average than men - i.e. its womens fault for not advocating for themselves enough. Reducing it like you have places blame on women for this happening. Most people would not start a relationship if someone said up front "I am not going to pull my weight". It creeps up on you.

As for my conversations with my male friends, many of these are people I have known since we were teenagers and long before they met their partners. So I perhaps have an opportunity to have honest conversations with them which is unusual. I dont think they would all be as honest as the man I was quoting. But its definitely what they are doing.

Thanks for the links, I know what I am reading tonight.. Some of it I have seen shared around before, but the majority - nope.

"Have you really never seen this stuff? If not, you might want to ask yourself why."

Why going on the offensive and challenge someone's intentions like that? I guess the satisfactory answer to that is that I am a privileged, oblivious man who never bothered to look around outside of his cosy headspace. I can guarantee you that I can send you 5-10 studies you never read before, but it would never cross my mind to question how on earth you never seen them. That's just not a fair question.

"As for my conversations with my male friends, many of these are people I have known since we were teenagers and long before they met their partners. So I perhaps have an opportunity to have honest conversations with them which is unusual. I dont think they would all be as honest as the man I was quoting. But its definitely what they are doing." - A) You are literally playing into my argument and lean on your own bubble around you as a source of truth when you say things like that. And B) This is literally the "I have <insert relevant group> friends, so I know what I am talking about" reasoning.

"With respect, this kind of reasoning
it will boil down to the individuals' actions, within their own relationships.
Is very similar to the stuff I used to hear trotted out to explain why women earn less on average than men - i.e. its womens fault for not advocating for themselves enough."
Who even says that? Women's 'fault'. Why women earn less on average is such a complex question, anyone who reasons with it being women's fault for xyz has the understanding of the matter of a 15-year-old boy who just smoked some weed on a Friday night. I don't even see the dimension where the two could be compared. What I said is simply that everyday behaviour of individuals will be the base for everything. How Bob and Joe will choose to behave as partners, as fathers, as coworkers, as fellow shoppers pushing the trolley past you in Sainsbury's, etc..., What you compared it to is some low-tier ragebait a simpleton would claim by completely disregarding any actual complexity of the question around women's earnings. I might be slow and tired, but I just don't see a parallel.

Maybe but I honestly believe that the number of women who wish to do these dirty and dangerous jobs is very small when compared to men.

The vast majority of dangerous jobs are carried out by men. This is just a fact.

I, for one, do not wish to do these things. At all.

It seems to me that people like yourself cannot accept that the things that make men great at pushing the world forward: risk-taking, obsessive focus on one topic, high testosterone levels, aggression targeted towards fighting just wars and so on are simply not compatible with the duties of running a household or being touchy feely.

I'm also fine with the concept that men and women are very different, too.

OK, then. My point was that a lot of these things are presented as 'womens issues' and that may or may not draw attention - even where these things are reported and how they are reported is through a lens which favours the male view. Its clear that you did not receive it that way, but that is as much on you as on me.

You have then gone on to attack me for being in my bubble. I was raised largely by a single dad. Had mostly male friends growing up. And in my work I work mainly with men where I talk to them in depth about their lives and underlying attitudes. At this point we are talking about thousands of people through my career. So not quite the restricted bubble you imagine.

As for the parallel between earnings and other areas of equality - back in the 80s into the 90s you regularly saw people implying unequal pay was because women were not assertive enough to get higher salaries. I hope we have a better and more nuanced understanding of this now (although pay equity in the UK is not expected until 2056).

Yes it is down to people to negotiate their relationships. But right from the start that negotiation is skewed because even people who think themselves quite enlightened and reasonable dont start from a neutral position.

No need for you to be rude.

Are you “perfect”

Do you think men believe most women are “perfect” ?

I can definitely meet you half-way, @MrsChristmasHasResigned , I genuinely did not mean to be rude, I tried not to be, but when someone says something that is challenging or standoff-ish, I will stand up for myself, for better or worse. I apologise if the way I phrased it made it sound rude, but can you meet me half-way and admit to being a bit stand-offish?

There is one thing you just said that is immensely interesting:
"Yes it is down to people to negotiate their relationships. But right from the start that negotiation is skewed because even people who think themselves quite enlightened and reasonable dont start from a neutral position."
That is such a layered, and super way of looking at the topic (truly!). But if we can say that even the well-meaning, enlightened men's actions and thinking are/ or can be skewed, can we deduce that the same is said for women? That we are all just faulty, skewed? Or are we saying that it's a men-only problem and women are just simply always on the right side and objective?

"As for the parallel between earnings and other areas of equality..." - nono, I am not going there, I did not drag earning issues in here, I have no arguments.

I agree, I did think your bubble was way more restricted than what you have, truth be told.

I can certainly acknowledge that sometimes the tone intended does not translate well when people are reading. Its a lot easier in person to gauge where people are coming from in person.

And yes, these are problems for all, not just men or women. Too often, though, they are presented as womens issues.

I can certainly admit to being challenging and it has definitely caused some difficulties for me in my life, especially when I have encountered people who expected me to behave in a certain way (less and less of these around as time goes by, though, thank goodness). But I dont see it as a bad thing. Not sure about stand offish though.

I certainly found our exchange thought-provoking, @MrsChristmasHasResigned . And I agree, it's not a bad thing at all.

Thank you @MrsChristmasHasResigned for turning what was a pretty reductive initial statement into a fascinating discussion. I, like @exhaustDAD have some interesting reading to do.

Yep and when was the last time a woman risked her life for a stranger? Or is stopping to change someone's flat tyre in the rain? It's almost always men that do these things. Every single tradesperson we've had in from plumbers, electricians to roofers has been male. But it's still men's fault women don't want to go into these industries apparently! I've never had a woman help me out with anything ever.

If women want men to be more rounded then women should be taking on all the dirty manual tasks that men do. I certainly have no wish to do that either so I'm happy with how things have worked for thousands of years. I guess that makes me a future trad wife or something!

Yes YABU. My husband is my favourite human - he ticks every box and has done for the 30 years we've been together.
I'd struggle to count on one hand anywhere he falls short. I would say I've been lucky and he's rare... but I had the most amazing father, too.
So I categorically can't accept that AMALT because, in my lived experience, they are not. By a LONG way.

A lot of the examples being used of careers women "don't want to do" have had restrictive selection procedures. Police officers used I have height restrictions, army selection has had male-calibrated fitness tests that aren't actually required to do the job but the majority of women will never pass them. And once an occupational becomes majority male it becomes challenging for women to work in the culture. I wouldn't want to work in the met for example considering the toxic institutional sexism and racism well documented or sexual harassment and sexual violence in the army.

I'd lol at women blaming on here but it isn't that funny.😒

Firstly we have "it's women's fault that men are shit because they made the wrong choice". Then it's women's fault that men are shit because of mothering".

The first rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for men.🤷‍♀️

At what point do men grow up and take responsibility for their actions or lack of action?

The vast majority of men are just living normal lives, going to their day jobs, rather than pushing the world forward. ("Just" wars, really ? 🙄That's pushing the world forward? Tell that to all the displaced and dead).

And those dangerous and dirty jobs traditionally taken by men tend to be well-paid and higher status than the traditional caring roles women often do, that are no less important. Nursing, social care, etc, which are so essential to our communities and lifesaving.

Women also tend to end up with the caring responsibilities at home, so leaving the kids, elderly relatives, to go work on an oil rig, for example, is less of an option.

Your average plumber or accountant, though, there's no reason when he gets home, he can't muck in with childcare and housework.

Nigel's not out there pushing some great male enterprise running the world or inventing the wheel - he's just unblocked some sinks today. He's not disabled by his cock. He lives there too. He's perfectly capable of being an equal partner.

Some wars are necessary. There is no peace without war. Peace has to be defended. How can you not see that? It's obvious!

An individual risking their life damned well deserves to be paid more than someone who does not.

I sort of agree about your average Nigel, however, the assertion that men are useless is frankly batshit (before anyone gets offended, I'm calling the notion batshit-not OP herself).

Unfortunately if people choose to ignore the fact that men and women have evolved to be very different and insist on absolute sameness in all areas of life they're bound to be disappointed.
(There are of course exceptions-some women have more balls than men. Thatcher, much as I disliked her, was such a woman
So was my late MIL.)

Truth is that blank slate equality rarely works as it's based on the lie men and women have evolved to be the same.

And to get to the OP- if you insist there's no difference I guess men may seem useless even though of course if men disappeared tomorrow it would be disastrous and to suggest otherwise is nuts.
Same if women disappeared.

We need a balance of male and female cause the female thing of talking things out doesn't always work.

Most posters who agree with the OP are imo only considering their relationships with the dh not the bigger world.
This again tends to be a female trait.

So, in a nutshell, you agree with the OP then? You think there is a lady brain that means women are unsuited to the brave, innovative derring do that pushes the world forward, and struggle to see life outside of their own husband, and that baby boys are born with a special brain that makes them the opposite?
You allow for the odd exception, Thatcher, but basically believe that being male makes a person more capable of the big stuff and women more suited to the ironing. In what way is that notion any less 'batshit' than the OP claiming all men are something else?

When we're talking about dirty, dangerous jobs, how come nobody mentions the caring professions?

Many carers are physically attacked by their charges, particularly those suffering from dementia and with learning difficulties- and these charges are sometimes large, heavy men. I have heard stories of badly run settings where carers are left alone with these kinds of patients. And, of course, intimate care and dealing with toileting needs can be very dirty indeed.

Is it because- as carers are far more likely to be women (and appallingly paid)- this doesn't fit in with the narrative that "men do all the dirty dangerous jobs"?

Yes. I thought this. PP seems rather disproportionately concerned about being rescued by a man from a housefire (only 1% of people are in housefires) yet less interested in her much greater likelihood of needing 'saving' via medical intervention. Which is the case for up to 90% of us at some point in our lives. And 77% of NHS clinicians are women.
Perhaps getting ones hands dirty and saving lives only counts if you're big, strong and brave and wearing a particular type of uniform.

Yes, and not a doctor's, nurse's, carer's or paramedic's uniform at that!

Some wars are necessary. There is no peace without war. Peace has to be defended. How can you not see that? It's obvious!

It's not so obvious to me. It's difficult to know if the world was more matriarchal whether wars would be so "necessary".

What I see is mostly a bunch of old men bombing the shit out of other countries over control of resources, dominance and ideology (or to distract from what's in the Epstein files). "Just" wars are few and far between.

And after all, if it's about "freeing" Iranian women in any way - who exactly are we freeing them from? Oh right ... men's institutionalised oppression.

Who's to say female-led societies wouldn't be more likely to co-operate and negotiate, and be more concerned about the lives of their people than letting them be collateral damage or cannon fodder?