NAMALT. Really? Dig deep and be honest with yourself. AMALT

[NoEggs]

I love my DH. He’s a great guy and we’ve been happy for many years.

But
He’s not perfect. Doesn’t do the laundry. Defaults to letting me make stuff happen etc. etc.

Now even if your partner is a paragon I would argue that the species ‘men’ will generally default to slightly bloody useless.

AIBU?

It might have shifted @exhaustDAD but nowhere near enough and I think it’s actually really unhelpful to say it’s better - better from nothing can still be really poor.

LTB !!! Today !!! Talk to a good solicitor!!! Change the locks!!! Empty the joint account !!!

That's the standard Mumsnet answer isn't it? 😀

I think women can’t accept this about their sons. That’s more the issue.

It has to be a continuous conversation, @MrsChristmasHasResigned . The fact that entire generations of children are being raised now in more free and understanding norms did not warrant the phrase 'better'? I never claimed it's perfect or done. But it's definitely better.

Out of curiosity - what's helpful, then? I am genuinely wondering - What is the solution to make all of this acceptable and better?

I found it a bit too simplistic to be honest. From the lunacy and description of mania in The Yellow Wallpaper to over simplified utopia. Hmmmm.

It is somewhat better now (how much better I’m not sure), but the current generation of parents and grandparents were not raised the way the new generation are.

I’m in my mid 30s and it was very much the way I described in my post for me growing up. We are now raising children and a lot of these beliefs and attitudes will unconsciously be passed onto our children or grandchildren because it was how we were raised.

Most people, both male and female, pay experts to do that sort of thing.

Me too, @OneQuirkyPanda , it was quite literally for me too, when I was growing up (we are somewhat the same age, me being late 30s). I got the full palette of 'boys don't cry' all the way to narrow-minded dads of fellow schoolboys assuming I was gay just because I never cared about watching sports, and I rather played with (mostly) girls instead. So everything you listed, I absolutely encountered too. Grandparents I think are pretty set, they lived their whole lives one way - it is still worth conversing with them, don't get me wrong. But the current generation of parents - that is you and me, even though we grew up with these nasty things, we recognise how bad they were, so already we took a step away from them, and we are raising our own kiddos accordingly. I wouldn't say "how much better" things are in a quantified manner, of course.

All of that I'd just use to round up to the original topic and say - as long as we keep conversations open, as well as our minds, that is the only way - instead of just washing our hands and claim that gender A is so and so, while gender B is another way. It starts with everyday things, my sons seeing that I treat their mum with respect and I don't expect her to be our live-in maid... Etc.

Life would be easier with/without a lot of things for many people though?

I don’t think ‘not needing a man’ would benefit me in anyway. I can do anything for the house myself and often do as DH travels so often/sometimes I have to work out the electrics and the plumbing myself or hire someone [who is usually male, coincidentally]. Having a second parent means my children have two people to love and support them, two extended families. Having someone in my corner who is my BFF - even when he is pissing me off - means I have an emotional and psychological support. And someone with the strength to move a triple wardrobe or undo an impossible nut n bolt. Women are not as physically strong as men, pound for pound and won’t suddenly evolve to be.

I know from my own personal experience that the extended family model does not always work this way, but the ‘doing it alone’ is so completely against the human psyche and the way we have evolved in communities and in families to support the production and raising of children.

So no, if women could suddenly have children alone [and, technically they can already], men would not become redundant. Life would not be easier for 90% of women.

Just because some men are useless [and this will be down to how they were mothered and fathered] doesn’t mean women as a group would be better off in a society without them. Misandry is not the way to combat misogyny.

@CautiousLurker2 - Wonderfully put!

John Wyndham also wrote a short story - Consider Her Ways - about a society where men have died out because of a disease which only affects them and women reproduce through parthenogenesis - only to daughters which is standard in parthenogenesis. Interesting read.

"the ‘doing it alone’ is so completely against the human psyche and the way we have evolved in communities and in families to support the production and raising of children."

Well in the short few decades since women were first actually ALLOWED to go out to work and not forced to reduce their lives to looking after children and the menfolk in those communities you apparently lionise, it seems to me that our human psyches are pretty much evolving very quickly into NOT wanting to produce and raise children or live in the "communities" that our female forebears had to bear.

Exactly, I think although we still have a way to go, we have seen a lot of change over the last few decades in particular. We need to keep modelling good behaviour and challenging sexist stereotypes, that’s the only way things will get better.

All forms of abuse except sexual - neglect, physical abuse etc. Most commonly directed at male children apparently.

The UK gov doesn't seem to like publishing statistics around 'controversial' issues like this and immigration but there are plenty of stats from other developed countries. I remember a discussion where somebody had posted stats from the US and 5-6 years running the mother was the primary abuser.

Ha ha, yes, I wasn't necessarily recommending it 🙂

I'd like to see the source of this information.

I think that what would be truly helpful is a discussion the ways we are socialised, that however much we think we are evolved we probably have some unhelpful conditioning lurking deep down, education on the actual work involved in running a house/family/relationship and that love means being equal partners - whatever that means to you and your OH. So that doing more than other men or more than you saw growing up, doesn’t mean what you are doing is good enough and doesnt mean that what you do now is going to work in future - you may have to renegotiate together as time goes on. Oh, and weaponised incompetence is a form of abuse.

The information I've found on https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/abuseduringchildhoodinenglandandwales/march2024#prevalence-of-child-abuse shows fathers being reported as the perpetrator of physical abuse 45.6% of the time vs mothers (31.2%), strangers (17.0%) and people in a position of trust or authority (16.8%).

So still more men.

These are all agreeable thoughts, I think. Anyone who has an open mind and heart in their relationship should be able to agree on these, I see no problem.

Utillity?

This thread seems to be about that men are not needed because they're useless at folding the laundry and doing household tasks (?!)

Gee whiz I get frustrated at my husband's inability to see mess but I'm not so narrow-minded to say we don't need men as a result of this.

Nearly every important thing in this world has been invented by men. Every thing.
If there's an emergency, the person rescing me is likely to be a man.

Yet they're useless cos they can't fold laundry? Ffs.

Shush, don't say things like that. Most MNers think they are perfect, don't spoil things for them.

Of course they can fold laundry. Children can fold laundry. Folding laundry is not hard. It's not lack of ability.

Men's history of inventions is largely because they were the ones with more access to education, resources and networking opportunities.

But even so a few brilliant male inventors doesn't mean all men get to ride on their coattails.

So Edison invented the light bulb - does that mean our Nigel down the road gets the credit?

Or maybe ... he should fold some bloody shirts.

Hey, Hedy Lamarr invented a frequency hopping radio device, does that mean all women can put the hoover down?

I don't want to see a world without men either. But to say 'nearly every important thing in the world has been invented by men' does rather gloss over the fact that until relatively recently, women have not had equal access to education and opportunities that enabled us to invent things. Not to mention that the roles women have played have often been invisible historically with men taking credit for their work.

If we are unfortunate enough to need rescuing from a fire tonight, I will bet my house that the person will be doing the rescuing will be a man.

Likewise any other emergency it will be a man getting his hands dirty.

Women are free to join these services and have been for many years now. Yet not many do. Hardly any in fact.

Bollocks to the laundry folding.

Now IF you want to make this solely about domestic labour, fair enough. I agree. Women are better. No argument from me on that one.

And yet evidence, both research based and anecdotal, shows us over and over again that men do not act like equals in relationships. Even most of the very nice men of my acquaintance will openly admit they will leave as much as they can to the spouses. But when asked how they can put the people they supposedly love in that position, they mysteriously have no answer.

How many film or tv programmes do we see where the central oh so amusing concept is that men dont pull their weight?

So for your point, yes, people who are reasonable should be able to discuss this openly and work in tandem with their partners. But most men dont do this. I dont want to get rid of men but I am sick of this crap.