Worried about HR meeting

[Icarriedawatermelon1983]

My husband has been on a pip for a few months now and it ends very soon . He had a meeting with his boss on Friday and his boss has said he will be called to a HR meeting sometime this week ! He has had a lot of positive feedback from his boss during the pip , met all the targets required , and thought his boss has been happy with him. At Friday meeting he asked his boss if his HR meeting was a disciplinary , to which his boss said ‘ is shouldn’t be ‘ . He’s now thinking he maybe losing his job and is going to be offered a package to go . He’s worked there for 11 years . What does he need to do if this is the case . We are both so worried .

First option - if this was a formal disciplinary meeting your husband should be informed at least 48 hours ahead of the process, reasons, provided with a copies of evidence and given the right to be accompanied

Without doing this, the worst they could do at the meeting, is inform your husband a disciplinary process will commence and set the disciplinary hearing for a later date. Your husband should not allow any disciplinary meeting to take place without being notified, prepared or represented

Because of your husbands length of service such a process requires 2 or 3 formal meetings over a period of time before a company could move to dismiss for performance related reasons.

Its not your husbands responsibility to document the outcome and agreed actions of a PIP. If the company is looking to escalate to a performance based disciplinary they would need evidence to justify it. If they haven’t recorded the PIP actions and outcomes, then your husband could easily argue any subsequent disciplinary process is baseless.

Second option could be they want to hold a without prejudice conversation to avoid all of the above and offer a settlement.

Third option is they want to discuss something more informal such as a change in role or circumstances, close off the PIP or theres a new matter to inform him about.

My advice would be that you have time. Treat the meeting as a way to gain information, listen but don’t agree or give anything away until your husband can take advice

She mentioned 11 years service up thread

That was my first thought when I read the OP’s comment!

Ah okay thank you.

So they can't terminate without following a fair process. If they did it would be automatically unfair. If a sanction was going to be issued eg verbal warning, he would need to receive a an invite letter setting out the reason for the meeting and possible outcome. It sounds like the PIP is an informal process. I would suggest he asks for the company's performance management or capability policy if concerned.

There is a possibility they may offer a settlement to agree via a protected conversation which would be a termination route but employee would have to agree to this.

Happy to answer any Q's.

I'm a Convenor for a Union in Local Authority...... sometimes someone won't give a straight answer before a meeting as technically it's classed as a "predetermined outcome".....that's something we always pick up on, technically it's a review of a PIP where I'm guessing they'd make a decision to make it a formal disciplinary or end the PIP or it can be extended a PIP should be a supportive tool and not a punative measure.
I would advise he takes someone in with him, if he's not in a Union he can join and contact for advice but as it's an ongoing issue and he's a new member they'd not be able to repryhim as they can't access legal support, for ACAS for tribunal it has to be submitted 3mths less a day from the act for them to accept it, so putting him into formal disciplinary can be classed as "the act".....doubt dismissal will happen tbh unless there's gross misconduct....if they want to do a pay off he legally should sign a COT3, in that I'd ask for a positive reference to be included

It would not be legal for him to go to the meeting and it be a disciplinary. You have to be invited to a disciplinary in a very specific way and you have the right to be accompanied. In addition there are many avenues to it - the company must have a policy. It will start with a verbal warning; then 1st written then 2nd written then dismissal. The PIP should have been clearly documented as well hence if he wasn’t meeting targets this would have been communicated to him and the processes of disciplinary for performance would already have been started. I think what I am saying is - if this was a disciplinary meeting then he would have been formally advised and given the right to be accompanied. He would also have to be provided evidence as to how he has not met targets which given as his boss has not even documented a structured PIP review, would be impossible. Depending on what kind of company they are they may try to blindside him. If so, he must remain calm, and simply say he will seek legal advice. Good luck

You are not recorded "without your permission" in the workplace though, it should be included in a privacy notice (by the employer).

It's not illegal to record people. And doing so without telling them does not mean you can't use it as evidence - evidence is evidence, if it exists, it can be used. However, if you DO record someone without telling them, while a judge would allow it in as evidence, be prepared for the judge to think you are an arse and treat you as an unreliable witness. Because only idiots behave that way.

Better to simply ask if you can record and agree to share the recording, why would that be a problem? It has the added benefit of ensuring everyone behaves properly.

Or take notes and ask that both parties share their own notes with each other, then you can dispute the others if they're not close enough.

The line to use if they spring something on you is "I'll need to consider that and come back to you". Just keep saying it.

Hr have always been involved In pips in my experience even when it’s successful they attend final meeting and produce the letter as it’s a formal process which may be relied upon if performance dipped again and they wanted to dismiss an employee

11 years .

Agree to a termination route or to a settlement offer ?

This sort of thing really gives managers a bad name. When I’ve put people through a pip, the hours I’ve spent documenting everything, sending minutes of meetings, coaching etc etc. boss is being really disingenuous pretending they don’t know what’s going to happen in the meeting with hr. How can they not know?

I would add that the outcome of a PIP should never be a surprise at the final meeting - progress meetings should be happening weekly and document where objectives are being met/not met. If someone is not meeting their PIP then the manager should be making that very clear in each meeting.

His meeting (if I had to guess) will be protected conversation

They are going to offer him some money to exit the business quietly.

Separately...
I would also 100% take his feedback with a pinch of salt.
He might be correct but every person bar 1 I have had to performance manage out would probably say they were doing well when thry werent. All of them seemed floored and shocking by the pip outcome despite clear direct feedback that they werent at the required standard.
I think its a protection mechanism or something....

Whatever the outcome he should do his CV ans get out

Can I just clear some things up . He has had no performance reviews in three month , he’s been on it for three month . Right at the start after the initial meetings HR told him it’s nothing to do with them now it’s between boss and DH . Them to have weekly meeting , whether on pip or not and DH has been asking at every meeting if he is meeting the improvement standards , and is there anything he’s not happy about , boss has only ever been happy with his improvements because he has reached all measures/ figures and targets which has been documented. . It’s only been DH that has been inquiring to his boss how he is doing and is he on track to be signed off . Boss has always said yes upto two weeks ago . DH shares worries , troubles with me and I support so I know he’s telling me the truth from his perspective. He would never be worried to feel he needs to lie or even fib to me . Any thought ?

HR told him it’s nothing to do with them now it’s between boss and DH
I'm no expert, but this sounds weird to me.
Good for your DH keeping meticulous email records.

I once spoke to employment lawyers about a pip we were considering at work and their quote was "No one ever comes back from a PIP, it is an exit path". He should have spent that whole time job searching.

Thankyou , it’s been so worrying for him , after each meeting with boss he’s sent him an email (evidence) stating what was agreed at meeting / target results / action done and to do and the verbal performance agreement about his pip . He’s then sent all them emails also to his personal email to save . It’s been exhausting for him

That’s really scary as he doesn’t want to leave and he’s on a really good wage , probably over paid tbh . Maybe there’s the problem

His boss hasn’t been at his level of job for long , I think hes struggling tbh

That’s what I’ve heard too.

To be honest it sounds like he will be best off out of there, he should get a settlement agreement. Does he really want to be watching his back after this pip?

It’s a meeting to get the pip signed off or extended or whatever the step is if he hasn’t met it successfully. If he is that concerned I’d be worried he wasn’t telling the full truth here about how well he’s done on the pip.

Oh they do sometimes. Someone where I worked overspent his budget by £2 million pounds. He was put on a pip, passed it. He still there whilst others were made redundant, and some would have been to make up for his overspend.

It's not necessarily true that PIP always ends in leaving, I was put on a PIP by a manager who was trying to get rid of me after I returned from mat leave. The PIP was absolute bollocks and included requiring me to attend training which was several levels below my pay grade and education level, as a way to humiliate me, but I submitted to it cos I needed the job. The manager strung it out as long as possible to try to get me to leave but I didn't and I'm still here 8 years later (manager isn't though).

There's no point panicking, just keep everything in writing (which he's done) and don't agree to anything in the meeting til he's had it in writing and had time to consider/ consult ACAS or someone external.