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Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 21:56

Iamateadrinker · 29/03/2026 21:02

Ah I see Thanks for explaining it FF
I must have missed the links re the above.. particularly re Shoo Lee and the statisticians being angry
Can anyone repost them?

You just have to watch the videos of them getting all worked up about it!

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 22:05

Oftenaddled · 29/03/2026 20:42

You are talking about Lee's appearance at Lucy Letby's first application to appeal in April 2024, where Ben Myers sought to establish that Lee's research had been misused by the prosecution through cross examination. Lee had not been asked to scrutinise the medical records at that point.

After this event, he formed the panel which scrutinized all of the children's records and reported in February 2025. These are medical reviews. He did not undertake medical reviews for the application to appeal.

Right so he came to the case without all the information required and has only doubled down since because he doesn't want to backtrack and say the experts and the jury got it right. Sounds perfectly plausible. No ones saying he's "sinister" just that he has a big ego-which he's more than proved calling the rash after himself. I'm sure he loved being called "the star of the show" as well, that's all it is to these people they've completely forgotten about the babies and families behind this terrible case.

Iamateadrinker · 29/03/2026 22:07

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 21:56

You just have to watch the videos of them getting all worked up about it!

The ones I have seen certainly show the experts exasperated at either their work being misinterpreted or their knowledge being discounted.. but angry enough to put their reputation on the line if they were really convinced of her guilt but wanted to make a point?
I wasn't getting that message at all.

NorfolkandBad · 29/03/2026 22:33

Iamateadrinker · 29/03/2026 21:02

Ah I see Thanks for explaining it FF
I must have missed the links re the above.. particularly re Shoo Lee and the statisticians being angry
Can anyone repost them?

FF doesn't do supporting evidence, simply claims things and when challenged comes up with a reason why not to post or ignores.

FF has been down the Shoo Lee route before, it's another rinse and repeat argument that's already been shown to be utter BS.

Oftenaddled · 29/03/2026 22:41

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 22:05

Right so he came to the case without all the information required and has only doubled down since because he doesn't want to backtrack and say the experts and the jury got it right. Sounds perfectly plausible. No ones saying he's "sinister" just that he has a big ego-which he's more than proved calling the rash after himself. I'm sure he loved being called "the star of the show" as well, that's all it is to these people they've completely forgotten about the babies and families behind this terrible case.

No - he came to give evidence on his area of expertise for the court of appeal, not in this case to explain the children's deaths. The court of appeal at this point considers whether there was anything wrong with the conduct of a trial.

The aim was therefore to consider how the prosecution had argued the case, based on Ben Myers's assertion that their claims had changed as they related to Lee's paper. The court needed to consider from there whether Lee's expertise would have undermined that changing argument if the defence had been prepared for it.

That is the kind of question the Court of Appeal can consider. What Lee needed to do in that case was to state whether the prosecution's arguments were compatible with the science as stated in his paper. His remit was not broad. Perhaps Myers could have found other grounds for appeal, but I doubt the CoA would have admitted fresh reports at that point. In any case, that's not the task Lee was set.

Later, he volunteered to read the medical records and investigate causes of death, as head of a panel. That's when he will have received all of the medical records.

So, to return to the original point, experts like Lee and his panel (not forgetting the UK panel too) have had access to and have reviewed all of the medical records in producing their reports on these children.

(ETA it is normal to name a medical discovery for the discoverer. Lee's sign is a convenient way to distinguish this rash from others. As far as I know it took him over 30 years to start using the name, so it looks as if his ego is less important to him here than achieving greater clarity in explaining the science)

Oftenaddled · 29/03/2026 22:41

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 21:56

You just have to watch the videos of them getting all worked up about it!

Maybe a link?

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 22:42

@Oftenaddled it's the botched one second part.

kkloo · 29/03/2026 22:44

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 20:12

Experts who haven't seen all the medical records. Sandie Bohin looked through thousands and thousands of pages worth of documents. How long do we think these new experts have spent on this? Especially before they did that disgraceful press conference? And yes most of them do have axes to grind.

Lets not forget the expert that Sandie Bohin replaced thought the same as Dewi Evans and Sandie Bohin for the few he looked through before he was too ill to continue. The only one on the fence was Mike Hall for the defence (but still couldn't explain some things) and he wasn't called...every other expert thought it was deliberate harm. So what does this tell you? That all British experts are incompetent? I don't think so!

Yes let’s not forget that expert.

Martin Ward Platt, involved in giving evidence against women in two different cases who ended up being convicted and then their convictions ended up being overturned.

Oftenaddled · 29/03/2026 22:47

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 22:42

@Oftenaddled it's the botched one second part.

I've watched it. As I said, Jane Hutton expresses minor exasperation. This is not evidence that anyone is pursuing this case because they are angry.

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 22:49

Oftenaddled · 29/03/2026 22:47

I've watched it. As I said, Jane Hutton expresses minor exasperation. This is not evidence that anyone is pursuing this case because they are angry.

But it's ok for people to read into everything Dewi Evans does/says? Just because he made some comment about keeping his daughter in horses and got paid for his (extensive) work he's the devil incarnate and doesn't mind putting away a young innocent woman on 15 WLOs?

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 22:51

kkloo · 29/03/2026 22:44

Yes let’s not forget that expert.

Martin Ward Platt, involved in giving evidence against women in two different cases who ended up being convicted and then their convictions ended up being overturned.

Well like you said before sometimes the court gets it wrong-and that goes both ways you know. I don't know much about those cases but I wouldn't assume he was wrong or that he wasn't acting in good faith. They're there to tell the truth as they understand it as experts that's all.

kkloo · 29/03/2026 22:51

@Oftenaddled
Don’t they only have a very short period of time in which to submit the reasons for appeal also?

Oftenaddled · 29/03/2026 22:58

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 22:49

But it's ok for people to read into everything Dewi Evans does/says? Just because he made some comment about keeping his daughter in horses and got paid for his (extensive) work he's the devil incarnate and doesn't mind putting away a young innocent woman on 15 WLOs?

I don't mind Evans being paid for his work and spending the money as he sees fit, no.

kkloo · 29/03/2026 23:00

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 22:51

Well like you said before sometimes the court gets it wrong-and that goes both ways you know. I don't know much about those cases but I wouldn't assume he was wrong or that he wasn't acting in good faith. They're there to tell the truth as they understand it as experts that's all.

Well even if you don’t want to assume that he was wrong it just goes to show what I’ve been saying about when police and the CPS fuck up the case that they put forward, if it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny later on and it’s not watertight then the conviction may later be quashed.

Oftenaddled · 29/03/2026 23:03

kkloo · 29/03/2026 22:51

@Oftenaddled
Don’t they only have a very short period of time in which to submit the reasons for appeal also?

I believe so but I don't know how rigidly that is observed. I do know that Lee said he missed the first email asking for his help, which can't have helped!

Myers could hardly have anticipated that legal aid would pay for a man of Lee's standing to go through 35,000 pages of medical records for an appeal, or that Lee would be generous enough to do it for nothing. So I doubt he would ever have planned the appeal around the type of reports the international panel has produced. As McDonald said, their work is pretty much unprecedented.

kkloo · 29/03/2026 23:07

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 22:49

But it's ok for people to read into everything Dewi Evans does/says? Just because he made some comment about keeping his daughter in horses and got paid for his (extensive) work he's the devil incarnate and doesn't mind putting away a young innocent woman on 15 WLOs?

That’s being brought up just as a little add on to the fact that other experts are saying his theories are nonsense. And along with the fact that a judge took the unprecedented step of warning Judge Goss about Dewi Evans.

Dewis credibility has mainly been challenged based on the evidence he gave, not for his comments about what he does with the money.

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 23:20

@kkloo courts are struggling for experts now. They're calling it the "Letby effect" so never mind the "miscarriage of justice" that never was-what we should really be worrying about is the fact that if any of us need them we might not have any medical experts willing to speak up in court. That concerns me a lot more and it's as a direct result of all the hate and abuse Evans, Bohin etc. have faced. Ironic that the Letby crowd are actually the ones undermining the justice system here.

kkloo · 29/03/2026 23:30

Oftenaddled · 29/03/2026 21:36

It would be extraordinary if Shoo Lee wanted more credit for the use of his paper. He got credit for it. Evans named the authors and actually went into a little panegyrics about what a fortunately excellent paper it was, back at the original trial when he was misinterpreting it. Academics put their papers out there to be used - why would Lee mind that?

Obviously, he minded that they got it wrong, when that risked convicting an innocent woman.

It is mad what fantasies people weave around him, with their efforts to invent a sinister motivation.

Agreed.

If he wanted credit then he could easily have went down the other route. Interviews about how his work caught a serial killer and so on. It’s ridiculous to suggest he might try to sabotage the convictions out of anger that he didn’t get enough credit.

I can’t believe you’ve suggested this again 😅 @Firefly1987

kkloo · 29/03/2026 23:31

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 23:20

@kkloo courts are struggling for experts now. They're calling it the "Letby effect" so never mind the "miscarriage of justice" that never was-what we should really be worrying about is the fact that if any of us need them we might not have any medical experts willing to speak up in court. That concerns me a lot more and it's as a direct result of all the hate and abuse Evans, Bohin etc. have faced. Ironic that the Letby crowd are actually the ones undermining the justice system here.

If true then blame the police and CPS.

NorfolkandBad · 29/03/2026 23:33

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 23:20

@kkloo courts are struggling for experts now. They're calling it the "Letby effect" so never mind the "miscarriage of justice" that never was-what we should really be worrying about is the fact that if any of us need them we might not have any medical experts willing to speak up in court. That concerns me a lot more and it's as a direct result of all the hate and abuse Evans, Bohin etc. have faced. Ironic that the Letby crowd are actually the ones undermining the justice system here.

courts are struggling for experts now.They're calling it the "Letby effect"

Better tell google

The "Letby effect" refers to the profound, negative impact of nurse
Lucy Letby's conviction for murdering seven infants on NHS culture, specifically causing widespread trauma, distrust, and heightened fears among staff of being falsely accused

we should really be worrying about is the fact that if any of us need them we might not have any medical experts willing to speak up in court

While that could become a problem, I'm far more concerned about the experts who are wrong in their evidence, meaning a miscarriage of justice.

Letby crowd

Yawn, it's late.

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 23:40

@NorfolkandBad well if you get your way there won't be any experts in the first place will there?

kkloo · 29/03/2026 23:41

NorfolkandBad · 29/03/2026 23:33

courts are struggling for experts now.They're calling it the "Letby effect"

Better tell google

The "Letby effect" refers to the profound, negative impact of nurse
Lucy Letby's conviction for murdering seven infants on NHS culture, specifically causing widespread trauma, distrust, and heightened fears among staff of being falsely accused

we should really be worrying about is the fact that if any of us need them we might not have any medical experts willing to speak up in court

While that could become a problem, I'm far more concerned about the experts who are wrong in their evidence, meaning a miscarriage of justice.

Letby crowd

Yawn, it's late.

I don’t think there will be any issues at all continuing to get experts when it comes to most cases of murder etc because in the vast majority of cases it is obvious the person has been murdered for a start and in most cases they are able to ascertain what happened due to the injuries etc.

There may be an issue when it comes to cases like this or anything where just theories are put forward about harm, but by the sounds of it that could be a good thing and could instead force change within the system so that those cases are dealt with differently and not just put before a regular jury.

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 23:48

Before I get jumped on for not providing any sources it's from the transcript of the interview with Sandie Bohin-https://www.reddit.com/r/lucyletby/comments/1s66wn1/transcript_of_the_trial_podcast_episode_featuring/

LH:
And also there is an issue, a wider issue, which of expert witnesses in general.
I mean, I, I've talked to Caroline earlier about a case that I did last week.
So I was having a chat with a prosecutor afterwards and he said we just couldn't find any expert witnesses to come forward and, and give expert evidence on this.
It's it's.
He called it the Letby effect.
SB:
I'm not surprised sitting where I am.
Why would you do that?
You only need to kind of look at national newspapers to find out that the experts in this case have been absolutely vilified by by people without any evidence or very little evidence and a lot of it is wrong.
And so why would anybody want to put themselves in that position?

kkloo · 29/03/2026 23:52

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 23:48

Before I get jumped on for not providing any sources it's from the transcript of the interview with Sandie Bohin-https://www.reddit.com/r/lucyletby/comments/1s66wn1/transcript_of_the_trial_podcast_episode_featuring/

LH:
And also there is an issue, a wider issue, which of expert witnesses in general.
I mean, I, I've talked to Caroline earlier about a case that I did last week.
So I was having a chat with a prosecutor afterwards and he said we just couldn't find any expert witnesses to come forward and, and give expert evidence on this.
It's it's.
He called it the Letby effect.
SB:
I'm not surprised sitting where I am.
Why would you do that?
You only need to kind of look at national newspapers to find out that the experts in this case have been absolutely vilified by by people without any evidence or very little evidence and a lot of it is wrong.
And so why would anybody want to put themselves in that position?

I already knew that that podcast was the source and you know what I think of that podcast, You wouldn’t know what the prosecutor said to Liz Hull because I’ve heard her talking to people and she gets confused 🤔

I see she was still going on about waiving privilege and how now that’s she’s waived it maybe MM can speak to BM 🤦‍♀️

NorfolkandBad · 29/03/2026 23:55

Firefly1987 · 29/03/2026 23:48

Before I get jumped on for not providing any sources it's from the transcript of the interview with Sandie Bohin-https://www.reddit.com/r/lucyletby/comments/1s66wn1/transcript_of_the_trial_podcast_episode_featuring/

LH:
And also there is an issue, a wider issue, which of expert witnesses in general.
I mean, I, I've talked to Caroline earlier about a case that I did last week.
So I was having a chat with a prosecutor afterwards and he said we just couldn't find any expert witnesses to come forward and, and give expert evidence on this.
It's it's.
He called it the Letby effect.
SB:
I'm not surprised sitting where I am.
Why would you do that?
You only need to kind of look at national newspapers to find out that the experts in this case have been absolutely vilified by by people without any evidence or very little evidence and a lot of it is wrong.
And so why would anybody want to put themselves in that position?

Are you seriously suggesting that this quote from a PODCAST means the whole world of expert witnesses is now afraid of the Letby Effect ? And google missed this ?

My mind is boggled, and you wonder why I challenge you (nowhere near as often as I could i hasten to add) to provide evidence for your claims ?

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