To wonder to what extent second shift/mental load/wifework is caused by men being more likely to work full-time and overtime?

[Carla786]

Obviously if someone does work overtime/full time, they should still do whatever they can to ease their partner's load and be an involved parent. But if a couple has one person (of either sex) working part time, and one working full-time/more often overtime, it makes sense the first person would do more housework etc, at least to some degree.
But I'm wondering how much of a factor it is in the issues of the second shift/mental load etc Studies show men tending to overestimate how much housework they do- but do couples who both work full-time or both work part-time have more equality in who does housework & childcare?
I think that is the most informative comparison, since if a couple has one person working full-time/often overtime it doesn't mean they should leave everything else to their partner who works part-time, but it does play into the issue.

I wonder what tends to be the pattern in the rarer cases where the woman works full-time and the man part-time? Does the husband do 'husbandwork'? Or does more end up falling to the wife still?
Gay couples are also an interesting ccomparison.I need to check, but I think I've read that both lesbian and gay male couples often tend to have a more equal division of housework, but childcare is still more likely to be done more by one partner than the other.

Maybe one factor here could be that women tend to take more parental leave, and then maybe men get more used to doing less even when she goes back to work, and it's harder for women to push back. This might explain part of the difference from gay couples, who (especially men) are less likely to have kids (though obviously a lot do)

Well, by its nature, the second shift is the work (mostly invisible, mostly done by women) after their primary working day is finished. Men have that too. It doesn’t mean they can’t fill their evenings with sorting household stuff even if they get home at 8pm instead of 4pm. It goes without saying that, of course, whoever gets home at 4pm will do more because they have more non-working hours.

That said, I used to have a long London commute, leaving the house at 6am and home at 8pm. Dh did all the kids stuff and the school runs and homework and clubs and cooking dinner on those days, because yes, of course, he was home. But my big London job didn’t prevent me from ordering Halloween costumes or booking parent’s evening or doing the meal planning and online food shopping on the train or during a break from work. I also went straight into bedtime when I got home at 8pm. I was up with the dc on the weekends and taking them to birthday parties and on days out. Because in my non-working hours, I was perfectly capable of being a fully engaged and present parent. Of all the dads I knew where also working long hours all week, i didn’t see many of them turn up solo to birthday parties, even though they are just as capable as me.

That is a shame re the dads you knew who worked same hours not doing the same. As you say, there's nothing stopping someone who works full-time doing some of those things at weekends...

DH and I both work part-time and we are genuinely pretty equal parents. There are some things I tend to do more of, and some things he takes the lead on, but overall I don't feel resentful and I don't feel unduly troubled by "the mental load". Saying that, we both have fairly low standards, and we are both advocates of "good enough" parenting.

I’d like to know what % of mothers working part-time do so because their DH doesn’t take on an equal share of the burden at home, and so they feel forced to to accommodate everyone else’s needs.

I have known several women recently quit their careers or move part time because their husbands just flat
out to refuse to help accommodate school run timings etc on even one day a week, despite having previously talked a good talk about equality.

I actually think a lot of the time these men would rather be at work than at home doing the domestic drudge, so their big important job becomes the reason they can’t - and someone has to accommodate the kids needs, so the mum ends up doing.

I even see this phenomenon among couples where the wife vastly outearns the husband, and he still expects her to do the lions share of everything. It’s socialisation - women are expected to do it, and we suck it up and do it much of the time as we feel we have to / reflecting that expectation.

That sounds like a good model. I think pressure for parents generally has escalated in an unhelpful way.

That's a good point. That sadly is probably the reason for at least some of this...

Really unfair when the woman is working full-time : husbands need to step up but I agree socialisation makes it harder for women.

Young men and women who are single mostly all work full time. It’s rare to come across a man or woman who is young and not in a relationship and isn’t working full time.

again, men and women who are married or in a long term relationship all tend to be working full time.

Once they have children, only (only!) 75% of mothers are in full time work but 92% of fathers are.

so the vast majority of families have both mother and father in full time work.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/articles/familiesandthelabourmarketengland/2021#employment-rates-for-parents-in-the-uk

My DH is retired and I work full time. He does about 90% of everything.

DH did everything when he was on gardening leave between jobs while I worked. I’ve always worked FT, as does he — he does all the cooking and food shopping and most of the drop offs and pickups, I do most laundry and the garden and more homework.

I think certain things make sense but I think antiquated societal expectations are easy to subconsciously fall back on. For example in a full-time/part-time relationship it makes sense for the part-time parent to cook dinner and do bath time because they’re home with the child after school and they need to eat and bathe before the full-time parent arrives home at bed time, but it doesn’t then make sense for the part-time parent to then wash up/tidy up/hang washing/etc. after bed time while the full-timer sits down because they’re tired from a ‘long day of work’, which is what very often happens in that dynamic. (Conveniently forgetting that all the child rearing is also work, it’s just unpaid.)

I do wonder about these studies where the workload is shared more equally between partners how much of the mental load still tends to be the (usually) woman’s burden. It’s the running mental tally of loo roll stock, insurance renewal dates, trip booking deadlines, birthdays, cards needing to be sent, presents for parties needing to be bought, outfits for school days needing to be organised, who’s where when (despite a shared calendar) etc. All of that can be equally shared regardless of working patterns.

Interesting points. Re the mental tally issue, I've seen some men online argue it tends to fall to women because they're better at multitasking mentally, while men's brains are more likely to compartmentalise.
I think there's probably some truth to this in terms of average tendencies but that's not really an excuse. After all, no workplace would listen to a woman who used her sex as an excuse for not being able to compartmentalise.

There are a still a few men left who pull their weight and do equal chores and share the mental load!! It disheartens me that so many men fall short.
Us mothers of boys/men must .... do.....better.
Before y'all start, I am not a misogynist🙄I'm sorry to put it all on us, (females) but it IS down to us!! All these males have had a mother and it starts from there.

In general, people (sadly often women) who work part-time or not at all wildly exaggerate the amount of "running" a household that actually needs to be done, presumably to justify their economic non-contribution.

Women usually earn less and are usually in more flexible roles. Therefore, when a couple have children and someone needs to leave because a kid is sick, someone needs to pick a kid up - it’s the woman as she earns less and it makes less economic sense for the man to drop his hours. When the household is struggling with having small children and the demands of working, it’s the woman who usually drops her hours.

Societal expectations make it “easier” for women to ask for flexible working - more like they just don’t have a choice to ask for flexible working.

So yes, working full time/overtime excuses the usually male partner from not doing their fair share. However, this excuse is the top layer in societal expectations around the value of female-centric work (why social care, nursing, teaching and childcare are poorly paid).

Men who don’t want to be involved will find any excuse. For some men that’s work. Seems like one that has less chance to be argued with because everyone’s got bills to pay. Others it’s golf or fishing or cycling or football*. For some it’s work, then they need the golf to network or the cycling to unwind. For a man that can’t simply can’t be arsed to work extra and go off cycling, then it’s just weaponised incompetence “they don’t settle for me”, “what time do they have tea?”, “do they need a jumper? Where are their jumpers?”

*Men can obviously work and have any number of these hobbies and be an equal partner. Being a big golf enthusiast doesn’t mean a man is shit partner. However for the men that want to do less there is no shortage of excuses for them and people willing to embolden their excuses because “of course you have to let him go to the football/golf, he works so hard he deserves a break”.

So you think a lot of the second shift stuff is exaggeration?

My thread is primarily about couples where BOTH are doing paid work, not sure why you bring up 'economic non-contribution'.

Well I worked full time and he didn’t work at all and I still did all the wife work except the school run… hence the divorce!

Studies consistently show women work longer hours when you include unpaid care work. This is across developed and developing countries. The data is quite astounding. I think it was covered in Melinda Gates' book.

Anecdotally, in 8 years of having children I've never received a children's party invitation where the RSVP contact is a dad. My husband is literally the only man I've ever known to put his name. I don't buy that every woman I know is working fewer hours than their partner and has more time for party organisation. Indeed, in the part of the country I live there are a lot of flexible public sector jobs so it's not unusual for both parents to work 4 days or both work 5 with a lot of WFH flexibility. That's definitely an example of an admin job that seems to fall to women as the default.

I think if one parent is FT and one PT, the PT parent should pick up much more in terms of housework, appointments, etc. but it should still be shared to a reasonable degree. I work FT and do most of the laundry, shopping and cooking, and all of the ironing. DP does the appointments, cleaning, etc.

Incredible! That kind of egregious behaviour is probably, unluckily, not extremely rare...

Agree, that sounds like a good setup.

That's a good point : it's not RSVP is something hugely arduous. No reason for it not to be shared equally.

I suppose probably women may engage more with kids' social circle: PTA, coffee mornings, school gate friendships, but that still isn't a reason not to handle party invites.

We try to split other things - for example, DP takes care of car insurance, credit card; I manage home insurance, mortgage, subscriptions (e.g. TV licence.), parent council. It (more or less) works.

DH and I both work full time and the load is evenly shared.

But where friends (mums) are part time and the dad is full time, the dads don’t half make a fuss about their work commitments meaning they can’t possibly do anything around the house/ for the kids/ commit to getting home on time for the mum to go out once a year etc.