To wonder to what extent second shift/mental load/wifework is caused by men being more likely to work full-time and overtime?

[Carla786]

Obviously if someone does work overtime/full time, they should still do whatever they can to ease their partner's load and be an involved parent. But if a couple has one person (of either sex) working part time, and one working full-time/more often overtime, it makes sense the first person would do more housework etc, at least to some degree.
But I'm wondering how much of a factor it is in the issues of the second shift/mental load etc Studies show men tending to overestimate how much housework they do- but do couples who both work full-time or both work part-time have more equality in who does housework & childcare?
I think that is the most informative comparison, since if a couple has one person working full-time/often overtime it doesn't mean they should leave everything else to their partner who works part-time, but it does play into the issue.

Shit a brick. Women earn less and are more likely to work part time.

Why is that do you think?

(MASSIVE HINT - women actually work the same hours ane EARN THE SAME as men until THEY HAVE CHILDREN)

Societal expectations are that women WILL drop hours or ask for flexible working once they become mothers because it's apparently heinous to suggest a man might need to drop his hours to cope with the need to not neglect small children. Many women feel they don't have a choice because family life is un-doable otherwise.

I work 'part time' (4.5 days a week) and as a result am treated like I'm a SAHM at home and a part timer at work.

It's fucking shit

Stop calling it "wifework" for a start.
The reality is a lot of women chose to be SAHMs. I don't agree with it necessarily, but that's up to them (if they can afford to).
Not many men choose to be SAHDs.
One of my best friends is a ft SAHD but he doesn't know of another one.

I used to do more of it, when working PT. Went full time a few years ago and we tended to split the extra stuff 50-50. However, since I changed to a more demanding job this year, DH definitely does the lion's share of all the other stuff.

I had a relatively shit now-ex

When I was working and he was unemployed, I did 90% of the parenting and carried the mental load. He did some housework

When I worked full time and he worked part time. I still did nearly all the mental load. He had DS on days I worked and he didn't, but I did the majority of parenting on evenings and weekends.

When he worked full time while i cared for a newborn and a toddler with additional needs. I did everything, he slept in a different room so baby didn't wake him, often left before they got up and got in after they were in bed (not working all that time).

When he dropped back down to part time (full time was "too stressful"), he still did fuck all. I worked night to cover the financial shortfall of him reducing hours and still did all the child care during the day.

It's not a working pattern thing, it as shit men thing

Why do women engage more with that stuff? Societal expectations, nothing more. I suspect I live in a fairly unusual area - I really don't recognise this idea of husbands having the big jobs and women working part time. There are plenty of dads at the school gates and dropping kids at parties. What I never see is dads helping with PTA events. Like the party invites, there is no good reason for this. It's just women giving up their time for free while men get away with not bothering.

I think we are partly to "blame" as women for putting up with it and allowing men to do it. I wouldn't tolerate it in my husband and he knows it!

Am I misreading (it’s late and I’ve had a beer so I could be) or have you misrepresented the data - the 75% and 92% figures refer to being employed, but not explicitly and specifically employed full time, no? The data on flexible working is further down and less of a stark contrast between mothers and fathers. A good chunk of those 75% and 92% are part time (a third of mothers and just under a quarter of dads).

Nothing but ego and blithe entitlement to the time and labour of women.

Yes, at parties myself I remember dads doing drop-offs (I'm Gen Z) but stuff like coffee mornings were mainly women (most of whom worked for pay, often full-time).

Otoh a lot of women surely enjoy stuff like PTA & coffee mornings? It would be fairer for men to share the load, though. The male loneliness problem is partly due to men having fewer social outlets : more involvement with school events might facilitate at least some friendships.

When I'm talking about 'second shift'/'wifework' etc I'm generally thinking of couples where both are in paid work. SAHMs are in a different situation, though men should still contribute.

We have a 3 year old DD and both work full time; albeit DH does compressed hours to have a day at home with her whereas I can’t do that in my job. I’m the main earner, and while I do wfh a lot I have to take calls at random times and often work late if there’s something urgent that needs doing. DH is in a job where you do your (difficult) shift but when you’re home you’re home - he doesn’t do OT for health reasons. DH does literally all of the cooking, most of the washing and cleaning we are prob 50:50 as we have bits we prefer (I like cleaning the bathroom, he hates it, he likes changing the beds etc 😂) I do often feel like he does “more” than me - but then he will point out that I do everything in terms of planning things for DD, I plan all the days out, all the clubs, I know when all the various costume days are, I do all the arts and crafts things, I’m sorting out her birthday party, all the childcare malarkey is on me…so I guess in terms of physical labour he’s definitely copping the majority of it whereas I have all the mental load. He’s the only dad I know that takes their kid to classes though, and two of the kids coming to the party are kids DD has met through activities she does with DH - I’ve never met them or their parents. He wanted to be an active father as his dad was largely absent due to military service, and he is. I guess we play to our strengths as I am more organised than he is!

Do you mean ‘overtime’ in the sense of choosing to work late at the office, using a full hour’s lunch-break as ‘me time’ so needing to finish later than someone who takes half an hour, going for drinks with colleagues (or deciding to train for a marathon while children are little) as a way of avoiding bath and bedtime? Very common.

Then there’s the way men and women adopt very different approaches to the same job. e.g. a male GP who has a very demanding, very-full-time job and cannot possibly arrange to finish early, pick up shopping at lunch-time etc. A female GP who has chosen the same very full-time job precisely because its inherent flexibility fits well around having a family.

Its bound to have an affect. Lets be honest though, a lot of these men are lazy before having children and women either are willing to settle or think they will magically change.

I think it just happens organically from mat leave. For obvious reasons the majority of babies are looked after primarily by their mothers for those earliest months. In my case I took year off then went back part time initially, gradually increasing to FT. I do the same job as now ex. Because I'd been the one originally making the swimming lesson booking, the contacts at toddler groups etc I was still at the forefront of all that despite my working hours eventually matching his.

I would say housework was fairly split though until he fucked off with ow he was actually a very "hands on' dad..but even that phrase is telling. There's no such thing as a 'hands on mum ' is there?

I do somewhat disagree with the lists of mental load things though..the vast majority of life admin is automated now through my bank account, things automatically renew. I only occasionally have to set aside a couple of hours to move things about or research a new quote. I last did anything about the TV license when I moved house ten years ago.

That's a good point, these are all probably not that rare ....

Why do some men prefer to be at thr office or out for work drinks? Do they feel under pressure from work? Really sad to want to miss out on that..

When my kids were small any attempt to share the load would result in XH 'forgetting' things (like getting home early to run kids to clubs etc) or saying 'oh, they don't really need to do that/go there/have those, they will be fine'.

So in order to have happy, socialised kids who maintained their hobbies, I HAD to do it. He'd pretend to be completely engaged and would tell everyone that he did 50% of everything, but in reality he would agree to do things and then just not do them.

Because they know what a stressy, busy experience the last couple of hours of the day with young children are and opt to avoid it of course! Relying on ‘default parent’ mum to carry the load.

I stayed at home for years so naturally did the vast majority of cooking, cleaning and childcare, then I worked part time and continued in the same vein, then worked full time and we split the second shift work fairly evenly. Now I tend to work longer hours and more likely to work overtime and he does the vast majority of childcare related things (takes DS to most of his after school activities plus volunteers as a parent helper with ice hockey and helps coach football, does most of bedtime every day, takes the day off if DS is ill etc,), some of the cleaning (tends to do the vacuuming and mopping) and some of the cooking while I do most of the cooking, laundry, dishes (when its my turn and not DD's turn) and take DD to training once a week and deal with anything related to her volleyball team like volunteer stuff. So pretty even split on the second shift but the one working less hours definitely does more childcare.

Ali Wong put it well when, in an interview, she was asked why she was always asked how she balanced work with childcare whereas male comedians were rarely asked how they balance it.

Ali said “because they don’t”.

Its partly why shared parental leave has been taken up by a tiny proportion of fathers. Because they don’t. And because society doesn’t expect them to.

A Danish friend (and a father) said the biggest difference he found working in the UK was the tuts he heard if he left the office at 4.30 for childcare.
In Denmark the fathers still sitting in the office and NOT doing the childcare pick up had the tuts.

Challenge it. Don’t put up with it. Role model behaviours at work, particularly if you’re in positions of influence.

I work full time and DH works part time and I earn 4 times what he does. We have 2 children and I would say we split the housework about 50:50. On paper it would probably be that he does more childcare as he is here for school runs and after school activities more but I’d say I do 80% of the kids other stuff that probably doesn’t get counted by anyone. Birthday presents, making sure they have everything they need for school, homework, play dates, birthday parties, school and friend dramas.

Therefore, I would say I do the vast majority of the mental load stuff.

Great post.
Why do you think it ends up that you do most of the mental load even though you work longer hours? If you were for some reason unable to do the mental load for a fortnight or so, would he be able to pick it up or forget?

Sorry for the delay, I was very busy but I'd like to resurrect the thread if possible, it's interesting.

Mental load means different things to different people. I can’t believe the fuss made about very basic things on MN. Someone on another thread listed ‘unloading the dishwasher’ as a separate task they had to do that day. That to me is just day-to-day existing in the world, and takes minimal effort? It’s like regarding opening the blinds or changing into pyjamas as separate items on the to do list.

I also really don’t understand the fuss around meal planning in a household with NT children / no heavily restrictive allergies. Like what is so stressful about food shopping and deciding what to eat? Fair enough if all the cooking and washing up is left to you when you both work full-time, but ‘meal planning’ is not in and of itself much of a mental load.

I sometimes wonder if mental load is exacerbated by women being often (on average) more prone to rumination. Whereas men (on average) have more tendency to compartmentalisation. So men may be less likely to ruminate over the tasks so even if they do do as much, they may feel less of a mental load.
And of course that's made worse by men doing fewer tasks to begin with.

Agree with this.

That reminds me of this thread by a man, arguing the mental load is often mpre pressure women put on themselves, or that society puts on them, rather than mainly caused by everyday stuff which is particularly laborious.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5195682-is-the-mental-load-exaggerated?page=1

He got criticised heavily but I think I agree partly with what he says in OP.

@hollyhocks2 I think you’re right! It’s section 4 graph 3 that shows the proportion of women working full-time by age of their youngest dependent child.

It says under ‘couple families’ that since 2020 the most common working arrangement for couple families has changed to both parents working full-time (but still that’s only around 50% both working full-time). So that is a shift - I’m going to guess probably down to cost of living forcing both into ft work