Electric cars are NOT the future, are they?

[Isometimeswonder]

I am genuinely torn. I need want a new car but really don't want electric.
But so few smaller petrol cars are made now.
I haven't got a place to charge a car at home.
AIBU I should accept electric is the future.
AINBU I should get petrol. (Please recommend a small city car)

“I simply can't be bothered to waste my day on your self righteous proselytizing. It is blindingly obvious that if every vehicle has to be powered by electricity we will need more electricity from somewhere.”

I think your tone gives you away a little, since I don’t think @glowfrog comes across as being “self-righteous”, let alone proselytising. They’re just stating facts as far as I can see.

Firstly, more serious people than you have done the numbers - because we already have very high electricity demand in the evening, and less during the night, the provision of off-peak electricity to charge cars will not lead to any need to increase the capacity on the network - cars charging will actually smooth out the peaks and troughs and allow GWh of flexible demand to be available - your “blindingly obvious” statement is one based on your blind ignorance I’m afraid.

And you can wire up a home charger and set it so it doesn’t draw any more current than your home can provide. So if a house only has an older 60A mains the charger won’t go higher than 5kW - still more than enough to keep an EV topped up with enough to reach a rapid charger at the first break stop on a longer journey.

As others have pointed out, the provision of rapid chargers at supermarkets and other places where people normally stop for 20 minutes or more is going to spread, as is the Dutch approach of providing destination chargers at more parking spaces.

You can shake your fist and be obnoxious on the internet, making untrue assertions and being rude to those that attempt to correct you, but you won’t change the future any more than horse owners could stop the Model T Ford.

@Scotiasdarling "I suppose people could charge with an extension lead out of the window, but they don't want to. Can't you see that just because you and your friends are happy with electric it does not mean that everyone else has to be. Whatever happened to live and let live?"

Again, nowhere have I said that everyone should drive an EV or else. I have merely argued back in relation to certain statements you've made against EVs. It's not "proselytizing" to engage in a debate. "They just don't want to" charge through a lead out of the window / drive an EV is absolutely fine as a position to take - and indeed people can choose to drive whatever vehicle they like for any reason, just like people don't have to justify likes or dislikes of any kind - but you can't then claim to be making rational, factual arguments. That's all.

"The roe deer, pine martens and newts which live in the Forrest here which will be destroyed for the turbines would quite like to live and let live too."

Again, where is the evidence that 1) there's going to be onshore wind turbines everywhere and 2) that it will destroy the natural habitat to the extent that you describe it here? Surely it's not unreasonable for me to ask about this.

As I said: if you don't like EVs and don't want to drive one, that is obviously absolutely fine. But if you say "I don't think EVs work in the countryside because X", it's not unreasonable or "proselytizing" for me or anyone else to say that X is wrong, if it happens to be so or if I happen to think so.

Thanks for explaining re: transformers. That's definitely something the state should cover if it became difficult for country dwellers to own petrol cars. Something for your local MP to campaign for, perhaps.

It took 80 years for private cars to become standard in most households.

And even now 22% of households in England don't have a car, a figure heavily influenced by London, where 41.4% of households lack a car,, while it's 18.3% for the rest of England. In Wales the figure is almost 20%, and in Scotland it's around 25%.

This is all completely untrue. There are companies out there that are using the batteries for energy storage after they come out of the vehicle. And when they do, the battery on a car can be swapped for a new one. This is the electricity mix today in the UK. Only 17% of it fossil fuels. grid.iamkate.com/

The point is that on an individual basis, they're fine. But at a macro level, the move to EVs is divisive and dysfunctional.

If you dont prioritise the move when its reached a stage where everything has been done for you, then Trumps values will be close to yours

I drive a van and am in need of a new one but really don’t want electric.

The range seems terrible and I don’t want to stop to charge halfway through a trip.

Annoyingly I can buy a 2023 plate van for 10k less than the diesel alternative!!

I certainly don't mean to be obnoxious, but it is very irritating when I try to explain why an electric car isn't suitable for me to be met with a barrage of people trying to tell me that I am wrong. I am neither trying to change the future not shake my fist. I am totally happy for others to drive what they like, but it would be nice if others could accept that an electric car is not suitable for everyone.

I drive about 24000 miles a year. With the best will in the world only the tiniest percentage of those could be charged overnight at home. I have a diesel Volvo XC60 and a sportier fun car for shorter journeys and better weather. When I fill the Volvo with diesel the range is around 680 miles. I don't want and don't have time to be stopping every couple of hundred miles. How many miles a year do all you electric fans drive?

@glowfrog totally reasonable to ask about onshore turbines. The reason you don't see many is probably because you are in England. Until last year onshore turbines weren't allowed in England, so there were more planned for Wales. I think the Labour government changed the law so they will be allowed in England, so I expect you will get more there now. Our proposed windfarm here in Wales will be an environmental disaster if it goes ahead. Radnor Forrest will be replaced with 30 turbines 220 metres high (that's higher than the Eiffel tower) The line of pylons will be 60 miles long to where it can be connected to the National Grid mainly through unspoilt (until now) countryside.

On a happier note, several manufacturers have this week announced that they are going back to making ICE vehicles. The electric ones aren't as popular as they hoped.

They are massively investing across England now
Local Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (LEVI) capability: funding amounts - GOV.UK https://share.google/VhcXYXMCTvJq0NGXI

Smart money is on hydrogen cars for the future. I won't be changing any time soon. We don't have a charging point at home and live in a very rural are where the nearest (Tesco) charge points are 7 miles away in the direction we don't normally go. Waiting it out with two old but reliable diesels to see which way the wind eventually blows.

Yes, the Germans are investing in hydrogen. They're usually more on the ball than the elitist governments of the UK.

People have been talking about hydrogen for two decades, and the reason it hasn’t happened is basic physics.

Waiting for hydrogen in mass market vehicles is like waiting for Godot. It isn’t going to appear. There is virtually no money now going into hydrogen for vehicles - it’s all going into making better batteries to store electricity directly.

Green hydrogen will have a huge role in the future. But it won’t be used in vehicles. It is far too valuable in the manufacturing of steel and fertiliser in place of coking coal and natural gas. And in the long term storage of excess renewable energy.

Coming to this thread late but I have a Toyota Yaris self-charge hybrid. I use about 1/3 less petrol than I did with my old petrol car. It is also very easy to drive and I love it, even though it's quite old now (2017 reg). But I generally work from home and go into the office by train, so I don't drive much in any event.

I think hybrids are a good compromise, fewer emissions when on electric mode and they save money on fuel. No range anxiety and no needing loads of apps. My employer does an electric/plug in hybrid scheme and I looked into it because of the tax benefits but didn't like any of the cars on offer.

Does anyone have an LPG car? When you go on the A303 the petrol station in Winterbourne Stoke just before you get to Stonehenge (travelling towards Andover) sells it, it's the only place I have seen which does.

The batteries will outlive the car - 200,000 miles plus. They can then be recycled to use for home storage and other. My car has a sealed motor and gearing that needs no maintenance, time will tell but it is expected to last the life of the car.

This is a very good point. I am not a patient person ;)

No, the Germans are not investing significant amounts of money in hydrogen any more.

BMW, for example, are launching a new range of Electric Vehicles, the Neue Klasse, at least in part because they recognise that Chinese EVs are now leading the way, and that being left behind as the Chinese dominate the future car industry is a very real risk.

The Germans do have more hydrogen filling stations than we do in the UK, for sure but only in the low 100s, compared with 10s of 1,000s of EV chargers (similar to here)

There are a whole load of old men who bet on hydrogen in their mind, and simply don’t want to publicly admit that they were always wrong. And hydrogen in vehicles plays the same role in cars that nuclear power and carbon capture does in the wider energy debate - it’s an excuse for delay on the basis of “something else is coming in the future so we should carry on as-is for now.”

No prizes for guessing who benefits from any delay in the move to EVs, so in whose interest the whole “the future is hydrogen” is most promoted.

The smart money absolutely is not on hydrogen. There is a reason why in 40 years since the firat hydrogen car it has not come anywhere close to being seriously considered as a viable mainstream fuel.

Right back atcha.

I live in a terraced house in a road of terraced houses in a suburb of terraced houses. I also have experience of the thing. Here, plenty of us have EVs. There are plenty of local chargers. It works.

The question asked on this thread was whether are EVs the future. All the "problems" people are trying to find to say no are solvable, indeed for many of us are already solved. To consider them permanent blockers is just short term thinking.

That very much depends how much fuel you use. My car is very good on fuel and I don’t have to drive far. I absolutely won’t be spending £8-£15k every ten years or so on fuel. Nowhere even close. Also, if you choose to sell the car on before the battery goes you’re not going to get much for the car if the new owner knows they’ve got a hefty bill incoming.

On top of the environmental problems for the batteries themselves, we don’t have the infrastructure, you can’t do a long drive with convenience either. It’s just a bad idea.

Right back atcha - are you 10?

Where you live. Not where I live. Not where most people live.
They may be the future. But it’s a distant future.

That’s definitely not what I’ve been hearing about them. Especially the ones that spontaneously combust on people’s driveways 😬

200k miles is nothing on a good diesel engine. So it won’t be outliving those either!

I'd consider a hybrid, but I think I'd have perpetual range anxiety in an EV.

Swapping batteries is neither trivial or cheap…cost me nearly £4k to get one cell in my battery replaced - would have been another £3k I think to do all of it…and over £2k was labour!!! You can’t get it done anywhere other than main dealers …this is why car insurance is going through the roof because any damage to a battery is many many thousands to repair….