Electric cars are NOT the future, are they?

[Isometimeswonder]

I am genuinely torn. I need want a new car but really don't want electric.
But so few smaller petrol cars are made now.
I haven't got a place to charge a car at home.
AIBU I should accept electric is the future.
AINBU I should get petrol. (Please recommend a small city car)

@Scotiasdarling
One pedal driving is not the same as one foot driving by the way.
I've had 2 EV's and I miss the one pedal driving. Having to actually use the brake pedal now feels weird as my current EV doesn't quite have the full one pedal driving system.

Firstly, we'd probably reach a point where EV ownership is the default anyway.

And secondly, there is something else at play here, which is that sometimes greater concerns require intervention. ICE cars spew out polution which causes all sorts of health and environmental issues.

Think about the smoking ban - most people will agree that the massive decline in smoking is a good thing, but that only happened because steps were taken to make sure it did.

Perhaps you should read before you post. I categorically did not say that city dwellers should drive ICE cars. In fact I said that EV's would be the best option for some. That should not have to mean that no-one can have an ICE car. And here at the back of beyond I know not one person with an electric car, they are just not practical. The rural electricity supply is simply not capable of delivering electricity for chargers even although we do all have driveways. Our local village (8miles away) with a population of 2700 has 2 charging points. The houses in the village mostly do not have driveways, they are very old terraced cottages in the main.

The people who say they have to drive 15 minutes to a garage presumably find 6 or 8 petrol pumps there, and customers each use them only for 3 or 4 minutes I would have thought it was obvious that that would be quicker and easier.

Cycling's good for that

Agree
but my bums very 1950s anyway 💃 😌

I love cycling but it's too dangerous because of all the massive vehicles on the road!

I live in a terraced houses and I have experience of the thing. There are no on-street chargers within a reasonable distance of my home. As a result, Nobidy in my street has an EV. I have a self charging hybrid as the best I can do.
It’s so obvious people are assuming everyone has the same facilities as they do without having experience of other places.

Yes there will come a point when the environmental pressure and economic changes will force you to change. But by that time the technology and convenience will be so much better. It already is
At some stage it will become more important than your wants
That's societal living for you
You could always go and live with Trump

Why does everyone on this thread think I don’t know what’s around my own house while they do? I’ve just bought a self charging hybrid having looked at the practicalities of all sorts of car. I can’t have full EV where I live without massive inconvenience (and someone to give me a lift from the chargers).

Without a home charger they're not that cheap, and only convenient if theres good fast charger availability at your work /train station carpark/supermarket/gym... basically somewhere you go anyway.

Long journeys just need a bit of organisation to coincide wee stops with charging stops (thrheree are apps showing chargers & availability).

DH has an EV, saves us loads in petrol. I have a Yaris, which is efficient etc.

Fair enough, then, if we're talking about 10 minutes - although a fill-up with petrol or diesel would obviously fill it completely and not only 80% full.

Once we have the proper infrastructure with enough charging points in as convenient a location as all the petrol stations, that would probably convert a great many people.

I still don't see why a government ban would be needed, though; as surely people would be keen to jump ship of their own volition, if everything is so much better/easier/cheaper.

That said, the 'cheaper' factor is clearly going to soon become a thing of the past, so that everybody will end up paying the same tax as is currently paid on petrol and diesel (that the government can't just afford to lose) one way or the other - not to mention ever-rising electricity costs too.

Government will likely quietly scrap the ban on ICE cars like they quietly scrapped the ban on gas boilers from 2035

I know - such a shame

Are we only interested in our own society, or are we looking at it globally - with all the environmental and geo-political effect of harvesting all of the precious metals and the workforces that currently do this?

I'm not saying 'ICE cars good; EVs bad' - it's a hugely more nuanced matter than that.

Is saying that anybody who disagrees with you must be a Trump supporter a modern spin on Godwin's Law?

I'm generally for EVs and would happily drive one, but I don't have a driveway. EVs are functionally inaccessible to anyone who relies on on-street parking and without massive infrastucture overhaul, I can't see that changing anytime soon. The government did what it always does in putting a blanket rule down without actually doing any of the legwork to ensure it was future-proofed.

So the people who have to park on the road at home, when the streetlights are done so they can charge cars, are people really going to go back out again and move their car once it's charged? I have a couple of relatives who don't have drives and it's hard enough for them to park as it is

Perhaps you should read not just my reply but your own post before you respond.

"That should not have to mean that no-one can have an ICE car."

Did I say that? No, I did not. I was responding very specifically to this comment of yours:

"They may be more environmentally acceptable in town, but here in the country where people inevitably have to drive more, big reliable petrol and diesel cars are the only sensible choice. Our local environment is very likely to be completely trashed by turbines and miles of pylons in order to provide the electricity for low mileage town dwellers cars."

Clearly you have no data that can prove that onshore wind turbines are spreading because of the growth of EV use in urban areas, or you would have shared it here.

You made an unsubstantiated, emotive argument - one of many bold statements that don't really hold up to scrutiny. For instance: your statement that automatic driving is the same as one pedal driving.

It really isn't: 1) one-pedal driving where available provides charge back to the battery and 2) acceleration in EVs is so superior to either gear-shift or automatic ICE vehicles that it doesn't begin to compare to the experience of slowing down and then accelerating again with either. To some extent, there is not necessarily a question of which is better as there's a certain amount of personal preference (although all the people we know who've ever tried EVs have loved driving them, even those who were initially hostile to them), so I'm not going to make such a claim here (although I know which I prefer!).

On the question of infrastructure, which you're correct is indeed the biggest issue when it comes to EV use - it can be a bit of a convenient excuse, though. Petrol stations didn't spring fully formed out of the ground, after all. In fact, one of my friends' great grand-father set up the first petrol station in their corner of Spain way back when, because he wanted a car but there was no infrastructure for them. So to a large extent, charger installation / charging access is a question of will. As it is, there are fewer and fewer petrol stations around. I think that's increasingly likely to be more of an issue for people with an ICE engine that still works fine and lacking financial means to buy a different car of any ilk, even 2nd hand.

I know people who plug their cars to charge into their mains at home, not into a specially installed charger. Charging is slow, sure, but they just set it off overnight. If they can do that, why can't it be done in the countryside? Willing to accept it's not possible if power supply really is that different but I have never heard this.

Those villagers with no driveway, where do they park their cars? And why can't charging stations being installed there?

In terms of "harvesting all of the precious metals", are you aware that cobalt is used in petrol refining (to remove sulphur), and that there is now zero cobalt in Lithium-iron-phosphate EV batteries (like those used in standard range Tesla Model 3, and other new models)?

There also new Sodium-ion batteries being launched soon and they are made with salt and aluminium.

Don't forget that fossil fuel extraction has led to countless wars (hello Gulf War!) and deaths and pollution. The fight from fossil fuel interests to protect said interests has contributed hugely to Trump being elected, which I think has arguably been very damaging to the world, including the US, and it's what propping up Putin in Russia, also a net bad thing for the world.

PS: I trust you don't use smartphones, which use much of the same precious metals being extracted in horribles ways for the environment and the work force.

You have to get your head round to a different way of filling up. If you can charge at home, you plug in and charge up at a cheap night rate while you are asleep, no effort at all. On a long run, there are loads of apps with maps and charge points. You plan in a stop and just charge when you have a comfort break. You don't need to go to a traditional filling station type place. Sainsburys are rolling out fast charging stations at their stores, so do your shopping, use their facilities. Go back to your car, the battery might not be fully charged, but enough extra to get you home where you fill up cheaply again. Once you get your head round it, it's a doddle.

Thanks - that's a very wise, balanced post. There are indeed a lot of environmental and ecological disasters caused by building and powering all forms of personal transport. I do use a smartphone (I usually buy them second hand) and I'm aware of the damage that they do as well. The modern world is very destructive and there's always a price to be paid over and above the basic financial one.

I just think that a lot of people have the impression that EVs are completely blameless and don't also have an environmental impact. It's great that technological advances are being made - which they probably won't be any longer now with ICE vehicles - but it's far too simplistic to believe/claim that EV's are some kind of environmental saviour.

If we truly wanted to minimalise the environmental impact of vehicles, we would be campaigning for local car-pooling schemes and an app-based way of preventing so many being manufactured and then sitting unused for 98% of their lives; but most people seem to still expect to exclusively own one of their own.

They move pollution out of the cities, they reduce dependence on the Middle East (but increase the dependence on China, but that’s a one time issue - replacement battery aside) but we are only at the start of this. They need to crack tidal electricity, then we’ll be laughing on this island.

Back at you. Yes, ultimately the most environmentally-friendly thing to do is to car pool or use public transport. We had an ICE car before getting an EV - it had its final breakdown in 2019 and it didn't make financial sense to repair it (we'd already shelled out a lot keeping it going) given that we just didn't use it that much anymore. So until October 2025, we didn't have a car - admittedly, much easier to do that when you live in London, where there is plenty of public transport! We still love taking the train and we've travelled all the way to the south of France on trains before, too.

Having said that - if you HAVE to have a car and NEED to buy a new one, I still feel EVs are the preferrable choice nowadays. You can get great EVs 2nd hand, too. Battery life expectancy has really shot up and there are no more concerns to be had getting a 2nd hand EV than you would buying a 2nd hand ICE.

I tow a caravan, I would need a beefy electric capable of a big van. I would be looking at under 20k..any electric fit the bill? Until then my diesel 4x4 big car will be kept, even though its 18year old now.

I simply can't be bothered to waste my day on your self righteous proselytizing. It is blindingly obvious that if every vehicle has to be powered by electricity we will need more electricity from somewhere. My view will not be spoiled thank you, but many of my neighbours will be, and most of them, farming on marginal hill land have holiday cottages to supplement their incomes. They are extremely popular, presumably with people from towns. I can't see them being so popular when we have managed to return to pre industrial CO2 levels by industrialising the country side. I suppose then the holidaymakers will just go abroad in VERY eco friendly aeroplanes.

The electricity supply issue is that the wooden poles which carry the wires have transformers on them, which have to be upgraded for the supply needed for a car charger . The cost of replacing these falls to the householder. (Several thousand pounds)

I suppose people could charge with an extension lead out of the window, but they don't want to. Can't you see that just because you and your friends are happy with electric it does not mean that everyone else has to be. Whatever happened to live and let live?

The roe deer, pine martens and newts which live in the Forrest here which will be destroyed for the turbines would quite like to live and let live too.s

The people in the village park on the street, obviously.

We live in a group of houses where no-one has a driveway and there are garages around the place near the access road. People park up on the access road so always have a short walk to and from their car.

If our EV needs charging, we find one of the many lamppost chargers nearby and plug in. It takes around 10 hours to get it 20-80%, but normally we’ll charge it for only 7 hours, since that is how long the off-peak rates last.

We try to charge it the night before we’re due to take it on a trip, because we can preheat the car remotely while it’s on the charger, and then unplug it and get on our way. The walk back from the charger in the evening and then back to the charger to set off in the morning is less than 5 minutes, and we only need to do it every 2-4 weeks if we’re only doing local trips.

For longer journeys, we make sure it has enough to reach a rapid charger where we’re going to stop for a break anyway, but we have also let it get to 90% or higher if that means we can reach the destination without charging. On one recent journey, it was meal and comfort breaks that caused the stops - the car was fine and we plugged it in overnight where we were staying.

So it’s super easy living with an EV and no home charging, gives us a few extra steps exercise (and my average is still 1,000s a day fewer than it should be), and seeing the lamppost chargers being used a lot by others wipes out all the nonsense about it being impossible to live with an EV without a home charger.

But that is with one huge proviso of course - it’s possible only because London has been highly proactive in providing on street destination chargers, whereas the latest research shows there are huge parts of the country where such facilities are not available.

So whilst EVs are certainly the future (I am an automotive engineer, and EVs are just better in almost all dimensions, and improving all the time in terms of capability, cost & capacity, whereas ICE cars have zero room for improvement) one has to accept that Arthur C Clarke’s observation is applicable:

”The future is already here; it is just unevenly distributed.”

What is frustrating to witness is that some local councils have done as little as possible to support their community to make the shift to what is undoubtedly cleaner, smoother, quieter and cheaper driving. People need to be campaigning to get them to do so, or they will be forever stuck in the past.