To ask you about the advice I've given DS 14

[Iserino]

Need some help and advice from parents with teenagers, or from parents who have been through the teen years.
In year 8, DS was part of a friendship group of 4 boys including him.
They were really close, hung out together every break/lunch at school and met up socially regularly after school, at weekends and in school holidays.
DS used to love being part of the group and always talked about how much fun he had with them.
1 of the boys, let's call him Fred, was mischievous and did a lot of things that he would get him detentions at school. His mum would refer to him as 'naughty'. In year 8 I was aware of Fred's behaviour and was monitoring DS's friendship with him closely. But DS said he was funny and made him laugh and that he was fun to be with and was full of character/charisma even though other aspects of his behaviour pushed boundaries and saw him get into trouble at school. In summer of last year they were still a close friendship group.
Then in September, starting year 9, DS went through a real step forward in development and maturity. He suddenly grew about 5 inches taller, voice deepened, and he started maturing in his views and opinions. Meanwhile, simultaneously, Fred ramped up his poor behaviour. His previous 'mischievous' behaviour turned into antisocial behaviour and DS started to dislike it. Fred started permanently disrupting lessons and DS started disliking this, coming home saying to me that loads of teaching time was being taken up by teachers managing Fred's disruptive behaviour which was stopping the teacher from teaching and causing frustration amongst the class, and DS was taking issue with this because it was impacting on his learning. Fred started acting up in class by being the class clown and deliberately winding the teachers up and trying really hard to catch DS's eye to try and get him to laugh along. But whereas in year 8 DS would have chuckled at what was then much more lower level miscievous stuff, now he doesn't want to engage with Fred doing this level of disruption in lessons because Fred's behaviour has escalated and is much worse now, and because he wants to apply himself and learn in his lessons, and because he doesn't want to be seen to be laughing along to this level of disruption. So in November DS stopped sitting next to Fred in their classes, moved seats and started ignoring Fred's loud class clown disruptive behaviour.
He says Fred is now being sent out of lessons daily. Then DS started hearing lots of other year 9 boys talking about how annoying Fred is and how much they don't like him. Fred got suspended in October for 2 days for something he did in school. Now he's just been suspended for 3 days for something else he's done. DS overheard some year 7 boys in the lunch queue talking about Fred saying they were all scared of him because he's mean to them and bullies them, and then they pointed at DS and said to each other "that's one of the Fred's friends we've seen him with him!" and DS was horrified by hearing this (he hadn't known this boy was being mean to year 7s) and was horrified by them associating him with Fred being mean to them. DS then witnessed Fred throwing stones at a year 7 girl at school, hitting her legs, which was reported. Other examples of behaviour are Fres walked into our back garden whilst he knew we were out and wrecked some of our garden property. He came along to a PTA event at DD's primary school and vandalised school property which caused uproar amongst parents. He vandalised some public toilets. There's lots of other antisocial behaviours I could list, too long to go through.
By November DS was saying he no longer wanted to be associated with Fred's behaviour because he didn't like what his behaviour had developed in to and he didn't want it to affect his own reputation. He started standing up against Fred, started calling him out when he behaved badly at school, and then consciously walked away from him.
This led to Fred's mum texting me angrily having a go at me about my DS confronting Fred and ranting about my DS moving seats away from Fred in lessons. It was a really hostile, attacking text.
DS walking away from Fred made Fred angry and in December he spent weeks leading up to Christmas bullying DS, he literally broke DS with the level of abusive personal insults and incessant bullying behaviour towards him. The things he said to DS were terrible, he used personal knowledge he had of difficulties and bullying that DS has endured in the past and used this against DS to break him emotionally. He started a smear campaign against DS and told another student that DS had called him a "F*ing immigrant c**t" when it was FRED who was going round saying this about the student concerned!!! The mother of this student reported my DS to the HofY for saying this (he didn't say it) and suddenly DS was being framed for saying something he NEVER said. It ruined Christmas for us because DS was crushed as a result of how nasty and vindictive this boy was being to him daily throughout December. He was out to tear DS down and it worked.
But DS still loves the other 2 boys who were in the friendship group. He was really close to them and really valued their friendship. Their behaviour was normal, nothing Fred's behaviour. And these 2 boys have stuck by Fred. They are still hanging out with Fred daily at school. Still socialising with him out of school.
I have explicitly told DS to stay away from Fred. No talking to him at school. No engaging with him. DS has blocked his number. I'm telling DS regularly to stay away. I have had the behaviour lead at school telling me to advise DS to stay away from Fred.
But the other 2 boys are permanently with Fred. So by avoiding Fred in school and outside of school, it means DS can't hang out with the other 2 who he still wants to be friends with, and who I don't have a problem with.
What's worse, is that these 2 boys have now taken issue with DS for 'ditching' them (in their words). They see DS as ditching them because of his problems with Fred. And they are annoyed with DS about this, because as far as they are concerned they should all 4 of them carry on hanging out together, and the other 2 are cross with DS for never hanging out with them anymore. They see DS as the one who's left all of them. I have texted one of the mums to explain the situation and have told her DS still wants to be friends with her DS it's just that he has been told by me to avoid Fred at all times which means he can't get to her DS cos they've always together, and I've tried really hard to make social plans for DS to see this other boy outside of school, but whilst she said she understood what I was saying, her DS doesn't want to meet up with my DS. I happen to know these other 2 boys (who DS wants to still be friends with) had a sleepover together last night and DS wasn't invited. This stings, because a few months ago he would have been and they boys regarded DS as their best mate.
I'm worrying that Fred is influencing these 2 away from DS. I know Fred is a liar. I've had him look me square in the eye and lie to my face when I've asked him about things in the past that I know he's done. I know he lies. He is extremely convincing. My gut feeling/instinct is telling me he's telling lies about my DS to the other 2, as payback for DS calling out his behaviour and pulling away from him.
So now I don't know if I've done the right thing in telling DS that he can't hang out with the other 2 boys IF Fred is with them. I've explicitly told him he cannot socialise with the other 2 if Fred is with them. But DS says Fred is always with them. So now it has ended up cutting him away from his other 2 friends, and he has ultimately lost their friendship too.
And now they've carrying on having fun as a 3, and DS is isolated with no friends and is spending half term alone with me. Before all this, he would've spent half term with them.
DS says all the other friendship groups in year 9 are already formed. He's tried really hard to chat to other boys and has tried to get to know others and hang out with them at school, but he says they've all been in close friendship groups or close pairs since year 7 and are all a bit closed off to him coming along and joining.
He's told me this week he's feeling really sad and lonely and so now I'm questioning my decisions. He loves seeing friends and socialising, he isn't happy being alone.
I don't know what to do to help him. He's the loveliest boy and he really wants to have friends.

I’m really sorry this has happened to your son; it sounds incredibly painful. Obviously he has done the right thing and you should be proud of him.

I think it is correct to stay away from the other two kids for now, but as a PP said I would bet they are privately uncomfortable with Fred.

Friendship groups at this age are fluid and fickle and I think its fairly likely that the two other boys will come around to your son over time.

Its probably also a blessing that this has happened before GCSEs. Fred is clearly going badly off the rails and your son doesn’t need to be around him right now.

I agree

When I taught in a secondary school (1970s so a long time ago...) I had a very bright boy in a class, call him A, who behaved the way Fred is behaving. He'd always been a bit 'class clown' but it took a big turn for the worse. I had to keep sending him out of the room so that the other kids could actually learn anything. Once, when I'd got the class settled into some work I went out and talked to him and told him that I could see he was unhappy because happy children don't behave like that, but that I couldn't allow him to behave that way in class because the other children had needs too. He literally had tears in his eyes.

I later found out that his home life was very abusive, and that over the previous holidays his dad had beaten up his mother, and his elder brother (another very difficult student who couldn't bear being touched at all) had punched dad and broken dad's nose, and after dad had gone to A&E the brother had cut his wrists in the bathroom, and luckily been found by A and patched up by the hospital. A was a very bright kid and should have done well. I left teaching before he took his GCSEs but I learned almost twenty years later when I bumped into a former student who had been a friend of his in school that A had committed suicide when he was 18.

I'm not saying this is what's happening to Fred, but I am saying this is a pattern of behaviour which raises a lot of red flags. If you're going to meet Fred's mum, OP, be careful and try to make a connection to see if there's something else behind what Fred is doing.

I think you need to talk to the pastoral lead at school and also try to find him some friends outside.

He’s completely right by the sound of it, but weaker people won’t be as brave.

It isn’t true btw that friendship groups are that fixed, but it’s difficult when it happens.

My advice is a bit ‘council estate’ but kids like Fred don’t respond to basic decency. He’s a kid you need to fight with fire.

Then in September, starting year 9, DS went through a real step forward in development and maturity. He suddenly grew about 5 inches taller, voice deepened, and he started maturing in his views and opinions. So if Fred tries to bully him again, DS needs to lean over to Fred so nobody can hear him and very calmly and very quietly tell Fred that he’s bigger than he is, he’s stronger than Fred is, and that although he really doesn’t want to fight him, if Fred doesn’t wind his neck in and leave DS alone, then he’ll get the reaction that he’s looking for. And because DS is so much bigger and stronger, he’ll hurt him. Really hurt him. And he’ll make sure he does it in front of everyone who hates Fred and would be only too pleased to see him get a good hiding. But he has to do it really calmly because if there’s so much as a hint of DS being wound up, Fred will jump on it and call his bluff.

This led to Fred's mum texting me angrily having a go at me about my DS confronting Fred and ranting about my DS moving seats away from Fred in lessons. It was a really hostile, attacking text How did you respond? If it happens again, then you need to tell her that Fred has gone from a bit of a mischief maker to a bullying little thug and you don’t want your DS anywhere near him because he’ll drag his friends down with him. Then tell her you can see where Fred gets it from and she should fuck off before you really lose your temper with her.

He started a smear campaign against DS and told another student that DS had called him a "F*ing immigrant ct" when it was FRED who was going round saying this about the student concerned!!! The mother of this student reported my DS to the HofY for saying this (he didn't say it) I’d tell DS that if this happens again, he asks the other students how many times they’ve ever heard DS call anyone names, or bully them. And how many times they’d seen Fred do stuff like that, so who did they think was more likely to be responsible for it.

But DS still loves the other 2 boys who were in the friendship group. He was really close to them and really valued their friendship. Their behaviour was normal, nothing Fred's behaviour. And these 2 boys have stuck by Fred. They are still hanging out with Fred daily at school. Still socialising with him out of school I expect they are. Partly because they might still find him funny and partly because they’ve seen what has happened to your DS and they don’t want the same happening to them. That won’t be the case forever. Fred is only going to get worse and these boys will either drift away from him (in which case, they’ll find themselves in the same boat your DS is in now) or they’ll go down with Fred, in which case your DS probably wouldn’t want to be associated with them either. Maybe speak to the school again and ask if they can sit your DS with a particular group in class. Are there any local boxing/kickboxing/karate clubs that DS could join? Or a gym? Just for a bit of extra confidence.

I'm worrying that Fred is influencing these 2 away from DS. I know Fred is a liar. I've had him look me square in the eye and lie to my face when I've asked him about things in the past that I know he's done. I know he lies. He is extremely convincing. My gut feeling/instinct is telling me he's telling lies about my DS to the other 2, as payback for DS calling out his behaviour and pulling away from him You’re probably right. But there’s nothing you can do about it until they work that out for themselves. You could talk to their mums but nothing repels teenagers faster than someone desperate to be friends with them.

How is that helpful. Secondly, no it isn't too long.

Fred is quite clearly a shit.

You need to support your son in letting these other friends go. Some friendships are fo a lifetime, some aren’t and that is ok.

Your son seems like a very sensible sort, hard though it is at that age, he should be proud of it.

Whilst some formatting might have been good, actually the length and detail of the post mean pretty much all the information anyone responding might need is immediately available. So the op doesn’t have to answer a multitude of questions.

When was the last time you read a book, @ldnmusic87?

TL DR

Are the school not backing your son up through him being bullied by Fred? And racist comments misattrihuted to him? Has that all cleared up now?
I'd probably try and get him moved tutor groups or to the other half of the year if he wants that.

Otherwise he will just have to gain his confidence back slowly and surely and continue standing up for himself, treating Fred with disdain and like he's something to be pitied and laughed at. Brushing off rumours with "you'd really believe Fred lol!"

Or put him in any and every extra curricular club he wants to encourage new friendships... youth clubs etc anything. Sea cadets, karate, film club

Re Fred's mum wow what a fool she is.. that's what happens when you think it's amusing to label your kid as naughty and cheeky.. they internalise it even more.

I work in a high school - Year 9 is notorious for reshuffling of friendships and lots of associated aggro.

It was the same when my DD was in Year 9 (she's now 21) and the same when I was in school (now 50).

You can't change Fred or these other boys - all you can do is reassure your DS that this will pass (a lot shakes down in Year 10 when they're mixed up due to GCSE options and realise they need to get their heads down a bit) and support and encourage him in making other friendships.

Go and look through a picture book or something then 🙄

OP you have absolutely done the right thing. My da went through very similar and I warned him that eventually everyone catches up and matures to the point they no longer fear bullies and have he confidence to stand up for what is right. But acknowledged it’s rough when you’re the first.

What was his saviour is that he does a sport (swimming) and so had a group of friends all separate from school bit that also went to various schools and different years so none of the crap and association stuff followed him there.

OP you are way too over involved in your sons life.

They aren’t his friends. They weren’t loyal to him and they condone bullying. He needs to find his own way and yes speak to you if he needs support but you aren’t helping his navigate difficult situations, build resilience or learn about friendships.

And texting another mum of a 14 year old - my kids would be mortified if I ever did this. You will only make it worse and need to cut the apron strings.

Even though it was a long long time ago. Back in the day when I was around that age, my mum banned me from being friends with my best friend.

we used to meet up in secret and were still friends for a while but she was also a bully and the friendship did actually fizzle out when we had different classes. I was lucky I had more than one circle of friends. She did try the same in that she tried to ‘bully’ me by spreading rumours but eventually our paths just stop passing.

we did have a friendship again a few years later as young adults as we had mutual friends (our boyfriends were cousins).

time moves on & paths go in different directions & whilst I hated my mother for the ban at the time it was probably the right decision. First time I have ever thought that.

your son will find his people & people will see him not associating with the bully which will be important

Tell your son to bide his time. Soon the other 2 will get lumped in getting blamed for Fred's behaviour and they will see why your son walked away. And if they don't, then he is better off without them as they are so easily led and lied to. At this point where he is becoming mature, he needs to be around people that know their own minds and conviction of their principles. Mud sticks, especially when there is videos of everything in this day and age, so tell him integrity is more important than a few months at school.

IME (I have three DC, youngest is 16yo now) there is quite a lot of movement in friendship groups in year 9. DS may think they're all set in stone, but if he keeps trying to make new friends, it will happen. Does he play sports or go to other school activities?

I think you need to advise your DS to advocate for himself. He needs to be the one talking to the other two boys and asking them if this is the kind of behaviour they want to be associated with.

He needs to find a new friendship group. He has made the right decision, probably better now than closer to his GCSEs.

Tricky OP. It’s strange that Fred is as bad as you say yet the other Mums are okay with the friendship still. Are you over egging a bit? If not, your son is to be commended and I’m sure he will make new friends soon. It is a bit odd to be texting the Mums of 14 year olds about friendship issues to be honest which is why I questioned how bad Fred actually is because maybe you’re a little over protective. Most people lie for example, especially children.

Perfectly fair, and good on both you and your son.

If the other two continue with Fred, they will, without a shadow of a doubt, become drawn into his behaviour. If they aren't capable of seeing his actions and creating distance from him, there is no way they'll be able to resist peer pressure into similar behaviour. And not only that, but siding with him against your son? Damn shame, but all the better for your son.

I'm sure that with time, both his teachers and peers will see for themselves that he is no longer anything to do with Fred, and react accordingly (presumably, this is why they are currently closed off to his friendship). Might be worth your son actively approaching his teachers in private and declaring that whilst he was friends with Fred in the past, it is no longer the case, due to his constant behaviour. Ditto for the peers, if he thinks that's the reason and they're reluctant to say it outright. Just to speed up the process, if nothing else, given the fact they're halfway through secondary school.

It sounds quite similar to what happened to myself - two lads started off as inseparable, and one of them became more and more of an arsehole. Fortunately, the other lad became less and less associated with him. Long story short, we became best friends - we had similar senses of humour etc. and the arsehole ended up in the bottom sets of everything with all the smackhead kids, probably did absolute fa with his life.

In fairness, the two of us that became good friends did spend a lot of time having a laugh in our lessons, but it was just daft stuff and in-jokes. Never anything about anyone, and never to the point of being disruptive. Occasionally, but we always stopped if anyone called it out, or we got any glares. Sometimes even stopped each other if we got the sense we were becoming loud/disruptive.

My sincerest best wishes to you and your son - I hope everything works out for you, and if anything I've said helps at all.

I agree that it was too long to read. I found it too long to read towards the end and it seemed to go on and on. I ended up trying to cut to the chase

I agree that it was too long to read. I found it too long after reading it for ages, it seemed to go on and on. I ended up trying to cut to the chase

My ds went through something similar in Y7 but the main boy (one of ds's friends) was saying low level racist stuff about him.
Y8 was tough as ds didn't have any real close friends but because he played football he got friendly with one of the lads in the team who was at his school and ended up with a small group of really good friends, they are all really good lads.
They're now all 20/21 and still close knit despite being spread over the country.
If your ds isn't in any groups/sports see if he would be interested in joining one

And yet I read the whole thing.

Honestly I think I’d be considering changing school if that was a possibility.