How are Grammar schools so much better than comprehensives if they get the same funding?

[Karma1387]

Me and my partner are in a situation where we are looking to relocate in order to move to a Grammar school area. This is going to involve us both having to find new jobs and coordinate a house move at the same time.

Some of my family disagree with our decision to move for the sake of grammar school and don't see how they can be better than a normal comprehensive school.

I am hoping some people on here will have some knowledge on how grammar schools achieve so much better than comprehensives?

Also anyone with experience with grammar schools they could share? From what I have read the class sizes aren't much different to comprehensives and they get the same funding. Is it literally just a case of because they do the 11+ they tend to only take on the more academically inclined kids. Does this translate to less bad behaviour etc compared to comprehensive schools?

The move is going to be stressful with us both trying to find new jobs plus moving further away from both our families I want it to be worth it! Our local comprehensive is awful for results and we want to give the kids the best opportunities.

Personally I would rather homeschool and fully keep them out of the school system but my partner is very against this and is determined we need to move to a grammar school area so any advise to aid our discussion would be amazing!

Are we being unreasonable to relocate for the possibility of grammar school?

@Karma1387 I wanted to home ed my own dd but as I’m a teacher I couldn’t 😂 but I’m back with my take on HE as an option.

I did work with a number of HE families ans an tutor and it isn’t all roses. Lots of the kids I knew (not the families I worked with as a tutor) were not being educated really, they were just not being socialised to school or the more usual social expectations and boundaries. Their behaviour was often demanding and entitled. Some of my families had real issues with kids from some of those families at the groups they all went to, because the parents either tended towards permissive or were busy with the younger children (there were always lots) and not really interested in what the older ones were up to. So you may find that not all HE families create an environment where your kids are happy- just as you might in a school.

Secondly cost. Without exception I worked with families where the dad had some high-powered job. This meant the mum could stay at home with the kids and thy could afford the groups and tutors they wanted, to provide the rich and balanced experience they’d envisioned. It’s not cheap even at primary, and then at secondary you need even more tutors and to pay privately to sit exams- the entrance fee but also find and pay an exam centre to allow your child to sit as an external candidate. Round here (despite the high numbers of HE children) those centres are like hens’ teeth and each exam was going to cost over £150 for one family- that was a decade ago so goodness knows what you might pay in another 15 years. If you get to GCSE and can’t afford it, then your kids will face real problems.

Thirdly, while I work with learners now who were badly let down by their schools, I also know HE children who feel just as let down by their family’s choices around education. Many HE children ask to go to school particularly as they get older. They want to be ‘normal’. This often causes their parents great angst, especially if school clashes with their self-image as alternative.

Again, I would suggest to you that you let go of trying to have a path set out for education. Move to somewhere you want to live, because if that’s right, the rest can be worked out when you know more about the situation and your children. If your family is happy, that is a solid base for your children to bloom from. As I said before, check out the availability of SEN provision. There are more and more alternative provision settings stating up, both independent and state, should you need them, and if you want to have a bit of reassurance now I would start there. Even if your kids don’t have additional needs, a lot of the problems in classrooms are caused by unmet needs so the better the provision for that, the better the system for everyone.

And is the secondary modern system equally popular? Or is the grammar system only popular among parents whose children get into the grammar schools?

Yes. It's strange that nobody ever campaigns to bring back secondary moderns.

My son is in his last year at an Essex grammar. He goes to school with children who travel from Chelmsford via the school buses or train. Its very common. KEGS does have higher entry requirements than the Southend grammars.

My son has thrived and it was the best decision we made for him. Don't be fooled that the everyone at grammars are rich. Its quite the opposite and one of the things I love is that my son has been exposed to much more religious/ethnic & social diversity than our local school would offer.

What I will say now is that since the VAT on private schools its much harder to get into the grammars. So please bear that in mind before moving.

That's true but I think a lot of us would like more vocational options available and those schools had expertise in that.

When we were touring secondaries a few years ago (in a fairly affluent part of the SE) some of the DT and food tech rooms were permanently closed and music provision was pathetic.

There are no "secondary moderns". If you don't go to a grammar, you go to a comprehensive (or an independent). Because some of the grammars are superselective and there's good train service, many students come in from wide distances so I'm not sure the intake of the comprehensives is affected in the way it might have been in the "olden days" when grammars served mainly local students.

It depends whether you are in a grammar area like Kent or Bucks. Those aren't super-selective so I think it could be argued that the 'comps' in those areas are 'secondary moderns' in terms of intake.

When you have a school with the top sets sliced off, it can mean fewer opportunities for those who just missed out. They don't get 'the education they are suited to' as maybe they don't get the option to do 2 languages or triple science as there isn't enough call for it. Whereas in her comp, my DD got to do French and Spanish GCSE even though she wasn't 'academic' (Bs and Cs).

Kent no longer has secondary moderns. It has high schools. A rose by any other name...

Many of the comprehensives (‘high schools’) in full grammar areas have a restricted academic offer though.

E.g much less choice for languages, my friends son had to do the combined science GCSE rather than Triple Science.

They are schools where the top 25% have been diverted to grammar, just as happened with the secondary moderns. But now without woodwork.

Pretty tough if you are a bright kid who had a bit of a fuggy head the day of the test and missed the Pass grade by 2 marks.

You were talking about Kent where there very much are "secondary moderns" as the grammar schools take the top 25% (?) of the ability range. A few out of county children taking places at super-selectives does not skew the intake that much.

I agree if we are only talking about the odd super-selective in a county, then, yes, the remaining schools would be pretty comprehensive.

(Same is true for other areas such as Bucks with a "full" grammar system).

Parents who care about their childrens education? Don't be so silly.

However (wrt Kent High Schools) kids can and do do very well in these schools… just as they do in the middle sets in Comprehensives.

30 to 1 competition ratios in North London. Clearly a lot of people agree with me.

But if there is so much competition then presumably all the parents of children who don't get in also care about education etc etc. And they all end up in the non-grammars.

If Secondary Modern Schools had done what they were supposed to have done along with Technical Schools they would have been successful. I believe they should come back under a different branding and be allocated the children who are a drain/ or not served in mainstream Comprehensive Schools. This along with Technical schools that should be Sponsored and operated by large companies, who in turn would get large 'tax' deductions against profits based on employment numbers. The, new branded Modern Schools should be used to place those children who are destructive to a mainstream environment. This, would also include school refuses who have mental issues but hopefully after support could return to mainstream education. Finally, a Grammar school should be available to any child in the top 25% of the academic ability range regardless of their place of residence. This, meaning we would need to create at least 500 more academically selective schools and give a hand to some struggling Independent schools that could be engaged to help.

I know i will be roundly condemned on here for these views and that there is zero chance of any of this every happening. However, I know there are parents that would campaign for new Secondary Modern schools, if it improved the experience their own children would recieve.

Hmm.. ..

My 3 years older brother passed the 11+ - left school with no exam passes at all.

They'd abolished the 11+ by the time I was in Y6, so I went to a comprehensive school of 2000+ children.

Left with a full complement of O levels, outstanding A levels and have 4 degrees plus a professional qualification.

Same parents.

It doesn't work like that. Parents will apply to multiple schools. It's not that 1/30 gets a grammar place and 29/30 don't. They'll go to other grammars, some to independents and some to non selective schools probably while staying on waiting lists.

Do you know west Kent? It's not a minority of children travelling a long distance to school. It's quite a lot of them.

I don't think anyone disagrees that very academic children should be able to access suitable education, and that children who might be more suited to vocational options should also be able to access that.

But why pigeon hole children at 10/11? What about children who are academic but might be interested in studying or skilled in something vocational as well?
What about children with "spiky" profiles or those who just miss the grammar school cut off? What about children with SEN who need extra or particular support?

I personally feel that it's not that grammar schools are so great that is the reason that parents like them, but that they are (perceived or actually) better than other state school options for many children.

I don't think the answer is to create more grammar schools, but to improve the school system as a whole.

Great advice for @Karma1387 in recent posts from @redskyAtNigh and @Holdinguphalfthesky

Hi OP. I haven't read the full thread, just your comments, so apologies if this has been covered already.

There are 'grammar schools' and there are 'grammar schools!' I see you were considering Lincolnshire. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that those grammars only 'cream off' the top 50% or so. So they're not that 'selective' at all really. Also, that area in general is a 'low participation in HE area,' meaning that academic norms / expectations are relatively low in comparison to other areas of the country. For instance, a comprehensive in an area with a higher % of children who enter HE would probably have higher academic standards than Lincolnshire grammars.

It's like Grammars in Wirral - they take the 'top' 50% or so and this translates into about 50% of their GCSE results being 9-7. Compare this to the grammar schools in Kingston-upon-Thames or the Latymer School in North London where thousands apply for 100 places each year. Results in these grammars are over 90% 9-7 at GCSE. Where populations are more dense, there is more competition. Grammars vary massively in terms of selectivity and results, depending on where they are.

The grammars in Buckinghamshire, Kent or Essex are probably 'mid' in terms of grammar school competitive entry. These schools might well be worth moving for, but obviously there is no guarantee your DC would get in. I have a friend whose DC is at a Bucks grammar and I think she said there are 4 applicants per place. So selective, but not insane like the London grammars where there might be 20 applicants per place.

As your kids are still pre-school, you can't tell if they are even academic yet. Anything could happen! It might be worth looking at somewhere with particularly good comprehensives. Obviously house prices will reflect this though.

Any comprehensive school will reflect its 'hinterland' - ie. the surrounding community who use the school and their attitude to education. Teachers can only do their best with whoever arrives in their classroom - they can't change the socio- economic environment around the school.

Personally, I would avoid Lincolnshire as it produced the highest % of Brexit voters in the U.K. I'm sure there are lovely people there, but there are lovely people everywhere.

If you're thinking Eastern England, the schools in Cambridge are very good - the Hills Rd sixth form etc. I'm sure there are other areas with similar excellent state schools.

A greater proportion of able children, AND, perhaps even more important, parents who value education and expect their kids to work and do well.

Both our DDs went to an all girls' grammar. Basically the 11+ creams off the most academic children, so the grammar school is basically one huge 'top set' under the same roof.

All round academic ability is very strong. Motivation is generally high and disruptive behaviour is low. Teachers can actually teach rather than just provide crowd control. Consequently exam results are routinely excellent and entrance into Oxbridge/RG universities are pretty much a forgone conclusion.

Sounds great, right? However, be warned these schools are essentially Exam Factories. If your child is struggling a bit to keep up, I'm afraid the school is very unlikely to care or provide support. They're not interested in stragglers.

Some tutoring for the 11+ is necessary regardless of how clever your child is. The 11+ papers look very alien and will be like nothing your child has seen before. The questions aren't especially hard, if given the time to ponder them, but you don't have any time because you only have 30 seconds per question.

In your shoes I would buy a property next to a good grammar school that takes in some students that live in it's catchment. I live in Herts and we have at least 6 grammar schools in the catchment area. Unfortunately we moved out a couple of years ago and our son took the 11+. He did pass and got a school (not top of our list), but it would have been less stress if we stayed back in the town. When he was 4 y.o. it was obvious that he stood out among his peers, started reading and writing early, memorised timetables early, etc. Aged 5, he could quote word-by-word long speeches given by politicians on BBC. He still worked incredibly hard and didn't have a life in Y5 - it's incredibly competitive here and Math exam includes the curriculum up to Year 8, so you would need to do a lot of work at home. Tutoring business is booming as many kids start as early as Year 3. I have another child and though young, he is nowhere this talented, so he won't be trying. Many grammars here in the area take only 30% of kids through the 11+ and the rest is siblings + local area. Their A-level results are really good and many parents are well-educated, thinking about the future. DS went to a 'good' primary with lots of kids addicted to screens and very poor, disruptive behaviour and he was not happy, so we wanted something better for him. More parents tried 11+ this year because they were priced out of private schools, so it's just insane at the moment.

We are in Gloucestershire which has a number of super selective grammars but there is no catchment so children can travel 30 miles+ to attend. there are both single sex and mixed sex schools so something else for you to consider.

My DD’s went to a single sex grammar which was fantastic for them. The teachers are amazing and regularly go the extra mile to help them.

There is a fair bit of pressure put on them (but equally support too) and they did need some tutoring as the exams here cover topics from the Y6 curriculum and also non-verbal reasoning which they need to get familiar with. This can be done by parents using readily available resources but I didn’t want to as we’d probably end up clashing and we were able to afford a tutor from the Spring of Y5 (c 6 months before the exams)

Luckily we already lived in the area so no decisions to make regarding location and they both got in. Our alternative would have been a comp c.30 mins travel away as the local comp near the grammar wasn’t great, although now improving.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do!