How are Grammar schools so much better than comprehensives if they get the same funding?

[Karma1387]

Me and my partner are in a situation where we are looking to relocate in order to move to a Grammar school area. This is going to involve us both having to find new jobs and coordinate a house move at the same time.

Some of my family disagree with our decision to move for the sake of grammar school and don't see how they can be better than a normal comprehensive school.

I am hoping some people on here will have some knowledge on how grammar schools achieve so much better than comprehensives?

Also anyone with experience with grammar schools they could share? From what I have read the class sizes aren't much different to comprehensives and they get the same funding. Is it literally just a case of because they do the 11+ they tend to only take on the more academically inclined kids. Does this translate to less bad behaviour etc compared to comprehensive schools?

The move is going to be stressful with us both trying to find new jobs plus moving further away from both our families I want it to be worth it! Our local comprehensive is awful for results and we want to give the kids the best opportunities.

Personally I would rather homeschool and fully keep them out of the school system but my partner is very against this and is determined we need to move to a grammar school area so any advise to aid our discussion would be amazing!

Are we being unreasonable to relocate for the possibility of grammar school?

They are indeed “having massive socialisations”, almost all a child’s friendships will be based around school for both primary and secondary.

I hear this a lot about teaching in a super selective near me. Apparently it's like something from the 90s where you copied down from an OHP. The teachers aren't going to be shown up by poor results from uninspiring or boring teaching are they? Everyone is going to get an 8/9 come what may because their natural ability plus motivation and tutoring plus parental pressure will ensure it.

OP, frankly this is all mad. You have no idea about the dc academic needs and wants right now and you have absolutely no way of knowing what any school will be like in 10 years time.

It sounds like your views on education- wanting less testing, more nurture, more play and less pressure- are fundamentally incompatible with what Grammar schools typically offer- a fast paced, high pressure environment with high expectations and strict discipline.

You can probably take a reasonably good guess as to whether your children are going to be GS material based on your own and husband's academic records- were you both high achievers throughout school? If you were both more practical sorts then it's likely your children will be similar.

It seems like a very big gamble for something which you don't actually seem to be in favour of.

In what way are they ‘rubbish’?

Surely that's only applicable if the grammars take a certain percentage of kids, like Kent does for example. In Essex it doesn't work like that. The Chelmsford grammars take a max of 300 a year over 2 schools and the kids aren't necessarily local so it's not as though they've taken the cream from the local comps on a large scale. There were 5 kids go on the school bus to DDs school in my town ( not all in same year) Doubt that had much effect on local schools

My partner is super super keen on grammar. I don't like public education at all. With the exception of the pressure and stuff. My concerns around behaviour and issues are less likely to be an issue which is why I have agreed to exploring the options.

Quite often the teaching at some grammars is not so good. I have a couple of friends who tutor for GCSE and A level and their students say the teacher jumps over a lot of stuff and teaches at the speed for the more able students.
Maybe these are the students who shouldn't actually be in the grammar school

Reports from parents based on support for kids with issues, bullying and also the government reading and writing scores.

And as I am a parent who has the option of potentially staying at home it is something I would happily do if we can't find a state school we are happy with.

They don't select on ability. They select on exam performance on one day when a child is 10 or 11. That a child has been heavily tutored for (usually) therefore it's basically a social class selection methodology.

A) Do you want to gamble your whole lives on how your child is feeling on one day?

B) The often quoted Mumsnet nonsense that comprehensive schools are all full of miserable teachers and kids getting duffed up because they like maths is rubbish. We do live in London but every comp near us has really high academic expectations (and inclusion!)

Grammars are archaic and there are hardly any left anyway.

It depends on your view of “not as good”. Grammar schools are much more independent and set children up much more for university after. The children are supposed to be capable of excelling without being spoon fed basic information.

That's a fair point in regards to the non-selective schools underperforming. But it doesn't make the grammar schools any better than average comprehensives.

My partner was a academic high achiever A* and As hence he cares so much about the grammar schools. I was above average but as I barely attendes school during my GCSEs due to MH I did very well to come out with As and Bs.

If your DC are young, it’s hard to imagine not being the centre of the world, but by the time they are teens peer pressure is a huge influence. It’s uncomfortable to admit, but your DC will do better if the friends they make have parents who give a shit.

Grammars, and comps in leafy AKA expensive areas get good results as much by selecting parents as they do by selecting bright children. Schools known for academic success attract parents who value education and who support behaviour policies. It’s not necessarily about being in the best school, but it is about stacking the odds against your DC ending up in a poor school with lots of DC with challenging behaviour.

As much as academics can be nurtured and I see why an environment such as a grammar school is a good option a persons interactions through life can define their actual life just as much as their level of intelligence. That requires a totally different skill set.

I have done volunteering in schools and also have 6 nieces/nephews. The reviews and opinions are very mixed so I understand it varies massively school to school and child to child.

If you're planning on structured, academic home ed then Grammar School might be an option but it sounds like you'd prefer more of a laid back "They'll pick it up when they're ready" unschool-y sort of approach, in which case it's highly unlikely they'll be at the required standard for the 11+ at 10.

It sounds like what you want and what your husband wants with regards to educating your children are diametrically opposed to each other.

I think you may be suffering a bit from looking at this when your dc are so young.

You have decided that all the school near you are rubbish. Primary, secondary all terrible.

This is just so odd. Hundreds of parents are happily sending their children to these schools every day and many of these parents will be engaged, motivated, hard working and dedicated themselves. They don't all have low standards and just shove their kids through the doors of these rubbish schools because they don't care like you do. Hundreds of qualified and trained and caring teachers go to work every day in all the places you are dismissing as rubbish.

The majority of students at uni and in general attend state comprehensives. Many many do v well and the reasons for their success will be much less locked into the school they attended than you seem to believe.

You are randomly picking areas of the country out of a hat and considering moving to them based on grammar school availability. Without knowing anything else. And that really does mean you don't consider or understand the other factors related to dc success like community, family, access to books, cultural capital, parental availability etc.

I wouldn't want to be part of a grammar system. My dc go to a very mixed comp and are doing brilliantly while also being able to see why and how lucky they are to be able to achieve.

OK. So the grades are promising, but I stand by what I said previously about the mental health of students at grammars. My husband has an Oxford doctorate and I'm a university tutor. Our kids are clever. However they've also inherited my neurodivergence. Son is AuDHD and did fine. Autistic daughter did fine too and found lots of fellow neurodivergent friends. But she struggled incredibly with anxiety (it was quite crippling at times) and the pressure from teachers and trying to keep up with her peers knocked her confidence quite a bit.

Does your child have grammar school potential? They are highly selective, it means all children are very bright and most parents are very engaged in their learning so behaviour is good and teachers can get on and teach. But if you take the bright kids out of the local comps they suffer, so if your child doesn't make it the move could backfire.

All schools vary, none are exactly the same. I have a DD at a single sex grammar, not super selective but selective. Anyone who was working at greater depth in junior school would get a place, providing they are in priority catchment area. DD says behaviour is very good, no one really messes about and they are given a lot of autonomy. She says behaviour is better than her primary school which was a leafy Oustanding rated school. They don’t have lots of ridiculous rules and sanctions, I guess because the kids who attend are generally willing and able to apply themselves and work at a faster pace. What I particularly like about the school compared to the local non selective options, is that they treat kids as individuals and don’t run it like a borstal. DD can go to the loo when she wants, she can stay in her form room for lunch if she wants, school doesn’t inspect her uniform and pencil case daily, they don’t issue behaviour points and an email/text to home if a child forgets their highlighter or ruler. She gets an hour for lunch, not 25 mins. She also feels safer in an all girls environment. And I don’t blame her for that. She would find a large, rowdy school quite stressful so she’s in a school that I do believe is the best fit for her. I was never an advocate for grammar schools or single sex, I went to a mixed comprehensive. But secondary schools have changed a lot since I was attending in 80’s/90’s and some of them are pretty brutal these days.

On a very small sample I'd say no. Gifted teacher who believe in selection often end up in private schools teaching kids selected by money and sometimes ability. Other gifted teachers are driven by the difference they can make in a comprehensive and wouldn't dream of teaching in any selective school. There are many advantages to selective education but better teachers I don't believe necessarily to be one of them.

Before you move to the catchment of the grammar, check out the school your children will go to if they don't get into the grammar - those schools really can suffer from losing the top 10% approx of any classroom ability bringing down expectations, average results, often behaviour etc.

@Cetera you've just described my daughter's comprehensive! Single sex probably does make some difference to behaviour.

Which just goes to show- it's not being a grammar that makes the difference.

I would say that you should take reports from parents with a pinch of salt. I speak from professional and personal experience when I say two families can have very different opinions on the quality of a school. You should look at those alongside other contextual factors.
Same can be said for for government test results, especially as recent results are from cohorts of children whose education was disrupted due to Covid.

Are you saying that ALL primary schools in your area are poor? All of them?

That's promising. It does sound like you had some bad experiences which have caused you to be a bit afraid of "the system". Most children have good days and bad days at school, sometimes their friends are unkind, sometimes they fail a test and feel disappointed, sometimes they don't want to go and go in grumbling. In most children this is just part of learning about life's ups and downs and doesn't leave them mentally ill and unable to leave the house.

My daughter is 6, she doesn't have a clue about government expectations and tests, she knows that a few weeks ago she sat in a room with her teacher and read a list of funny words before she went out to play and some children are practising reading the funny words more often than her. It hasn't occurred to her that it's some sort of test.

It’s no mystery really. They filter out the disruptive kids by being selective, the same as independent schools.