Grammar vs independent

[ssj123]

We are navigating the 11plus journey with our daughter. We have offers from Wimbledon High, Putney High (w scholarship), Surbiton High (w scholarship), LEH (w scholarship) and Guildford High (w scholarship) and we are awaiting results from St Paul's Girls tomorrow. We have already turned down her Kingston Grammar 10plus spot. We are waiting for Tiffin Girls outcome in March but we will have only half a day once we know about Tiffins to decide on other options so we are trying to rule out choices as we go - we are not keen on SPGS, Putney High and LEH seem less appealing now than when we started, Surbiton High was a backup, Guildford High seems best at the moment. But also, we need to have a firm view on the tough choice of independent vs. Grammar. Can someone who had similar options on independent front but went grammar please walk me through their rationale and whether they were happy with the choice in the end? Are we being unreasonable considering grammar in the face of all these options? Thanks!

Take the grammar and independent status out of the equation and consider all the schools as equal. Which school would you choose as best fit for your child?

Are you in a state or independent school now? There's definitely some merit in sticking with the system you know. And, as you suggest, there a moral element to consider if you're switching from independent to grammar and thus taking a place away from a bright local child who can't afford independent.

I would also consider the commute. That's quite a wide area you're considering. Is the journey reasonably straightforward and managable?

I would bring be bringing the daily journey into the decision making.

If you dd is going to want to stay after school for plays, concerts, matches, boosters- where could you do a late trip to and from? What about medical appointments and the dentist. What if she forgets her pe kit? What about you going in for options talks for eg?

You should probably do some sort of matrix / chart to compare the options, and also try to establish what are your priorities. I always find that getting thoughts down on paper when trying to rank options really helps.

Ultimately, it depends upon what you feel the benefits of a private education would be - and whether they would be worth the cost to your family. What scale are the scholarships? Are they eg 25 %, or higher?

For us, as a family (we have 3dc), paying for private school would probably have been impossible for all three (perhaps possible for just 2 of the dc); so accepting a grammar school place for dc1 (and subsequent dc) was definitely the best option for us. It has meant that we have avoided the financial pressure, so now have the funds so that our dc will avoid any student loans at uni, and then we hope to help them further down the line when it comes to contributing to housing deposit - which I doubt we could have done had we stretched massively to do the school fees. We also managed to overpay our mortgage over the last 15 years, so we are now also mortgage-free. Which we couldn’t have done with school fees.

For dc3 (when making the grammar v independent decision), dc3 asked how much it would cost to send them to private school for 7 years, and was absolutely aghast when we said it would be approx £175k. Dc3 then said - actually I’d prefer to have that money to go towards a house, please!

We didn’t have the option of scholarships (very well done to your dc for that!), and your financial circumstances may be completely different to ours.

I have a friend whose dc went to a very selective, independent prep school, and discussing options with them over the years, I was surprised to hear that the majority of all dc at the prep tend to go onto independent secondaries - so it seems to be almost a given that dc would stay in the independent sector.

I also think you need to think about pastoral care and how robust your child is. Many clever girls are diagnosed with autism in their teens, so I would also be checking what support is available if you have this as a possibility. A lot of grammar schools are not set up for wobbles or SEN and this has swung a few people to realising they can actually afford private and would rather their kids had that support, so they should be giving their grammar place to a more needy child who might benefit from the spot.

We have the opposite experience - when we visited the local independent schools I explicitly asked about support for dyslexia / autism / SEN generally (during the head teacher’s talk), and was told by one of the HT that they would accept children with very mild dyslexia, but they were not geared up to dealing with autism. Anecdotally (from one of the other local independent schools), dc with autism at secondary level tended to come from the juniors section of an all-through school rather than the school particularly welcoming external children with autism at age 11. I think it is not possible to generalise on this though - I suspect some private schools may have brilliant SEN support, whereas others less so. At my dc grammar schools, we have found SEN provision to be very good.

Yes I am sure it varies. You can see the % of SEN in schools on the government websites, so if this is an area of concern it is worth checking the % as it likely suggests better pastoral care if there is a larger cohort. Our grammars had less than 2% SEN.

Less than 2% SEN at the grammars may reflect more on the nature of the selection test; it is extremely time-pressured near us, and not all of those with dyslexia meet the criteria for accommodations in the selection test (you have to apply separately for accommodations). I also think a lot of parents of children with SEN wouldn’t think to apply to grammar.

Grammar schools are state-funded, so they have to meet reqts around inclusion / SEN.

However, as with independent schools, there will be a big variation in how SEN is dealt with in grammar schools as well - my dc have been to two grammar schools, and one of those is definitely much more geared up to supporting around SEN than the other.

Yes I agree. My point was more that as girls are generally not diagnosed until their teens, if this is a possibility then it is worth considering it as part of the decision. A few girls every year drop out of our grammar when their autistic traits become harder to mask, for example yet they go on to get top grades at the private schools locally with a less intensely competative environment.

We chose a grammar school without hesitation for our daughter. She was offered the maximum scholarship for two leading independent schools, plus music scholarships, one of which was within walking distance, but we all agreed to accept a place at a super selective grammar school and hour’s journey away. It was by far my daughter’s first choice and we felt it would give her a much more rounded education. We also wanted her to grow up in the real world rather than all her friends coming from extremely privileged backgrounds and her being the poor relation. The school she went to got results which were better than the public schools we had applied to, and we also felt that she would have an advantage with some of the universities she was likely to apply to coming from a prestigious state school. We wouldn’t have quite been eligible for a bursary if we had chosen one of the public schools but could have just about have afforded the fees with the scholarships offered, but i think my daughter got a much better education overall at her grammar school.

I am familiar with WH, putney high and Surbiton. WH is by far the best out of those and I would say is more selective than even the girl's grammar schools.

Your considerations need to be; what system is she currently in, is she keen on sports/extra curricular activities etc. I would say grammar definitely has very limited opportunities for developing interests and hobbies etc. For example, getting into netball club is very selective due to limited spaces. Sign up online but the places go in a second.

If it was my choice I would pick WH in a heartbeat. We couldn't because of affordability, but she would have a more rounded experience with strong academics.

She is in a prep school now but the step up in fees is quite material from primary to secondary so the financial element is definitely a consideration. It would be a stretch for us. SPGS would be the trickiest journey of all the options mentioned but everything else is fairly doable between school buses / public transport

Guildford High is ranked higher, has better results, facilities and seems to offer better overall pastoral care so right now we have ranked GH over WH. We have heard mixed reviews about culture amongst girls at WH and PH. Also she has scholarship offers at GH, PH, LEH and SH so WH feels a bit less attractive, financially speaking. She also got an offer at SPGS which is far more selective but selectivity is not a key consideration at the moment

GH or Tiffins. She is academically very capable and likes being stretched but she is also very down to earth, collaborative, non materialistic and would struggle in a "flash" environment of girls showing off their expensive new accessories/gadgets.

@Snootsnoot sorry to jump in but what you have said has really resonated with me.
My DD is super bright and in the top of her grammar cohort but she has wobbles. Do you think this could be a sign of autism in girls ?
I've wondered if she is she has some sensory sensitivity as well.

1. At least one or two of those schools are a horrible journey for her, and that in its own right knocks them out of the decision making
2. what can you afford? Or does that even matter
3. which one does your daughter like?

They’re all much of a muchness, bar Tiffin which will inevitably have less cash / resources. But will save you cash. If she’s bright she’ll thrive there

Assuming she’s offered all of them, where do you live that getting to Guildford is as convenient as getting to Hammersmith? And trust me it won’t be when there’s a tube strike or south west trains strike.

I feel like your list is a tiger mum trawl of ‘the ‘best’ girls schools’ in the SW London / Surrey area rather than representing any thoughtfulness about what might suit your child

She now has an offer from St Paul's Girls too, and everyone we know seems smitten by the school and its ranking and is goading us to accept but is it really worth £38k/year? It would be quite a stretch financially especially as we have a second who is similarly capable and would then aim for the same

SPGS is the trickiest to get to and we never seriously considered it as a serious option, we only put her through the exam process to see how she would fare. She and I even joked about how we are doing the exam "for fun" as I would be horrified at the 38k price tag and the ridiculous commute. And yes we did go for the most academic options that we could reasonably get to, will not entirely deny the tiger mum label either :) GHS was a late addition to the list because we were surprised at how straightforward the journey was, despite the distance, and right now its ranking no 1 for us amongst private options. So its a decision between Tiffins vs GHS

It is possible. We had a late diagnosis and it has explained a lot. There is an equal amount of girls as boys with autism but the numbers don't catch up until the 20's, so girls are diagnosed a lot later. The masking is tiring so they often explode at home while being the perfect student. If you have concerns it is worth looking into with a professional.

@Snootsnoot @Thelostjewels There is a concept (I suspect from the US?) called ‘Twice exceptional’ (2e) - which essentially describes those who are gifted, but also have autism (i think autism rather than other types of SEN, but not sure without checking).

i suspect it is unusual for girls in this overlapping category to get an autism diagnosis, as I recall that often girls ‘learn’ how to mask a bit more easily than boys can (sorry for the sweeping generalisations). But I do know that girls with autism can present very differently to boys with autism.

Thank you for the detailed response. My DD is currently at a prep school so indeed the vast majority of the kids go onto indie schools and therefore it is hard to get a balanced view from fellow parents many of whom feel queasy about their kids going to a state school (a bit ridiculous). Which is why I came on here... could we make it work financially? Yes, if all goes well wrt both of us working FT but it is not a small price tag at all and there will always be tradeoffs. I am frank with my daughter and tell her that going grammar could potentially unlock opportunities for her for university that we would not otherwise consider (eg US universities)... it is hard to fully grasp what my kid misses out by going grammar, obviously independent schools have much more breadth wrt clubs and activities but a child still has the same no of hours in a day and cannot avail of everything. Pastoral care also seems like it can be patchy in private schools despite more resources. A lot of parents seem to say that private educated kids emerge more confident, articulate and self assured.. hmm, could also be correlated to wealth of their families? Tough call!

Why on earth are you getting your child to sit for every exam in SW London? You need to calm down FGS. She is a person not a performing seal.

It you can’t afford private comfortably grammar is the obvious choice. You will know the odds of her getting into Tiffins so that is not a guarantee by any means.

Be aware that many many girls at the super selectives have serious eating disorders. Maybe something to do with the relentless pressure😵‍💫

Thank you for your concern, genuinely agree that this would seem like a lot of academic pressure if you dont know our family. It is hard to explain but both my husband and I come from very humble backgrounds (did not grow up in the UK or Western world) and have reached this place in life on the back of full academic scholarships (including living costs) so, as a family, we have an unusual love for exams - this is the equivalent of a family which loves skiing as a sport for e.g. :D

My daughter knew from the outset SPGS was not a realistic option but she was curious how she would fare and was not daunted by the prospect of failing it. She came out of the experience saying she learnt a lot and enjoyed the exams and experience irrespective of outcome so it was £265 exam fee well spent.

This point on eating disorders, do you have a view on whether it's more prevalent in grammars or privates? We didnt grow up in the UK so this is all new to us. And as an immigrant myself, I can probably be more blunt, we are a bit concerned about her staying in the immigrant bubble at a grammar vs. in a private..

OP if you are still looking for input, suggest you look up the very recent Tiffin Girls Ofsted report. I have personal experience of SPGS and TGS. I think you are very right that there are a lot of private school parents who seem queasy/ horrified by the mere idea of going state even if said state is academically better that the private ones. Baffles me. (Also, there is NO WAY on god's earth that WH is harder to get into than TGS!)

Hi, I have sent you a private message as we are in the same position as you with school offers