To be confused by 'high earners' complaining about taxes?

[tutuland]

So high earners pay lots of tax. The top 20% pay for 70% or whatever the numbers are.

But (beyond printing more money) isn't the money there high income people make just coming from the paying public? No matter who you work for, your company's profit is just an accumulation of normal people paying for things.

So ultimately, isn't it all our money anyway? Just beacuse the game is rigged and you get paid 400K for management whatever, it doesn't mean you're more deserving of that money than anyone.

If at first you dont succeed etc

The Duke of Westminster is a billionaire. Most of his wealth is land and property.

how is he supposed to take that with him?

I don't think anyone would ever confuse me with a high earner and I always complain about paying taxes all the time, especially as that bitch Rachel Thieves is going to have us paying more of it come April...

I read somewhere that 60 people have the same amount of wealth in the uk as the bottom 50% of the population.

Just. Take. It.

It would probably help both sides of the argument if people realised just how much tax you pay starting after £100k in the UK and how access to state benefits are restricted.

Take someone just into higher tax rate on £126k compared to a full time minimum wage earner.
It’s roughly 5 times the gross, but they pay £42k in tax compared to £2.5k tax for minimum wage so they pay almost 17 times more tax. Then you begin to factor in lost free child care and a supposedly high earner can end up with less than double the take home of having a minimum wage job. Does it really sound like something worth sacrificing and striving for?

I agree the threshold can be severe and unfair, the system needs changing really

My husband has worked extremely hard to become a Dr starting his training aged 40. Used to work in a factory which was declining. We had children and had to take on over £80k of additional mortgage and student loans to see us through his years at medical school whilst not working. I had 2 jobs and he was away for 4 years apart from weekends. It was hard and expensive and that was only the beginning. Once he passed his exams he then had to do another 12 years of additional training to reach consulatant level that he is now at. Yes he earns well but he is 65 and can’t retire until at least 68 as on top of his tax he pays 28% into his pension as he was late starting it and needs to add to it so he can retire comfortably. He has worked so so hard and earns every penny of his salary every day helping people and yes saving lives. Why should he pay nearly 50% of his earnings in tax because he has worked really hard to succeed? For those people who say it’s easy money he has the same response and yes, he is told this : if it’s that easy why don’t YOU do it?? This country hates success and hard work but where would we be without doctors and many other hard working professionals and unlike business owners he can’t write lots of expenses off to bring his tax bill down

I’m speechless. That’s saying something. Just how can anybody actually, really, think like this?

So so true!!

It’s the stealth taxes of not adjusting the banding that’s really doing the damage. If the top 2-3% of U.K. earners once everything is factored in are not much better off than minimum wage wage earners then we’re obviously heading for some big problems.

Absolutely, those people that don’t work hard to earn more are always wanting those that do to pay more

While I agree the current system isn't working I think it's disingenuous to say that the top 2-3% of earners aren't much better off than those on minimum wage

If every high earner had undergone that level of sacrifice and did something so necessary, worthwhile and socially valuable, I'd agree with you entirely.
However, your husband is not typical. The most highly paid roles are more likely to involve moving money around to make wealthy people richer than saving peoples lives.
There's success and success isn't there? For some it's in the money, but I think its in the worth. Your husband is a success in the way that matters and I can't imagine anyone hating him for it.

It's all relevant though. People in the lowest tax bracket also have these issues. Do you believe there should be different queues at the GP and A&E for you and your mum? Pro rata they are paying an equal amount to you. All the non paye tax is equal.
Perhaps the people who manage to dodge paying any tax, should be who we should all look at.

I think this is really well put. There will always be individual anecdotes that are exceptions but that doesn't change what should be happening on a wider, societal level

Well, low earners pay some tax. The bottom 80% pay for 30% or whatever the numbers are.
But (beyond printing more money) isn't the money the low income people make just coming from the paying public? No matter who you work for, your company's profit is just an accumulation of normal people paying for things.
So ultimately, isn't it all our money anyway? Just beacuse the game is rigged and you get paid 20K for management whatever, it doesn't mean you're more deserving of that money than anyone.

126k puts you in the top 2-3% of PAYE earners and I demonstrated how after tax and loss of free child care that take home could be £50k vs £24.5. That’s before any additional top up benefits or deducting any graduate loan repayments. This is why people are moaning, it’s a huge issue.

You missed a bit… quite a bit actually.

VAT is only part of the puzzle. The majority of tax is collected through income tax, not VAT. Those on lower salaries are likely to pay VAT on most of what they earn. However, our tax system is designed to take more the more you earn - not just in £, but also as a percentage of your income.

A lower earner gets a tax-free allowance of c. £12k and pays 20% tax plus NI. Whilst some may not qualify for additional benefits, many others receive child benefit, childcare support, and may also qualify for additional payments and support with housing, childcare, prescription charges, etc. So whilst they tend to spend most, if not all, of what they earn (on rent, bills, food, consumer goods), they may also draw quite a lot out of the system - a system that other workers cannot access.

Someone earning over c. £50k pays 20% up to that amount and 40% on everything over that, plus NI. At a certain point they will lose child benefit, but may still get support with childcare costs.

Someone earning £100k and above pays 20%, then 40% up to £100k, and they also start to lose their personal allowance - £1 for every £2 earned above this until the personal allowance is wiped out - an effective tax rate of 60% in that band. They have already lost child benefit and now they also lose childcare support, and they still pay NI.

Someone earning c. £125k+ is really winning… they get hit with 20%, 40%, then the effective 60% band at the point the personal allowance is fully removed, and then 45% on anything earned above that. They still pay NI but have no personal tax allowance, no child benefit, and no childcare support.

ISAs: the money paid into ISAs is money that has already been taxed.

Pensions: they are not tax free either. The government effectively delays the tax you pay on your pension as an incentive for people to save into one to reduce their dependence on the state in retirement. You can draw up to 25% tax-free, but everything else will be taxed at whatever your tax rate is at the time.

Savings: High earners with a lot of savings generally pay some level of tax. That tax is typically on money that has already been taxed before it is put into a savings account.

In addition to income tax and VAT, higher earners will likely pay higher stamp duty, and may also face additional property related charges on top of council tax (for example where a high-value property surcharge applies, if introduced).

TLDR: Saying high earners pay less tax because they save more is a best being selective with the truth, if we are being generous... VAT is regressive, but it isn’t the whole picture. Income tax is progressive and far more important when it comes to understanding who actually pays the most tax in the UK.

You are also getting paid from the pockets of society.

Low earners just pay a token tax, they receive much more back. It’s around £70k before you are a net tax payer.

I think the issue is that middle classes are squeezed on two fronts:

1. the corrupt government ministers (mainly Tory but also Labour) who use their privilege to secure lucrative work for their rich cronies and for themselves when they leave government and who are too helpless to come up with a way to tax huge corporations properly
2. the benefit claimants who think the rest of the country owes them a living and who think the only solution is to tax everyone else more, many of whom can work but who have no intention to do so

When I was at school they taught BODMAS. Have they introduced freeloader mathematics since then? Some of the mathematics on here is mind blowing.

A successful business can charge a company for their services, you are not directly paying yourself. What’s your background? Did you slog at school to get great grades, take out excessive loans to get a degree, work night and day as a graduate to pass further exams and then slowly work your way up the ladder? Because these people sacrifice a lot to get where they are and deserve to be paid well. Or if you have 2 lower paid jobs, working 80 hours a week, you deserve to be paid more. Thank goodness for high earners and thank goodness for those people who do important jobs of any kind, whether it’s a carer or shelf stacker. Stop goading stop being bitter. Me thinks you should have worked harder at school!

I thought it was c. £50k if you aren't using schools etc.

Possibly, I guess that’s £8k a cost per child if in state school. So you’d need to pay £16k in taxes to cover 2 school age children.