To think the roots of the grooming gangs go back to failures from the 1950s on?

[Carla786]

I was reading Hina Husain's excellent article here and it made me think

https://unherd.com/2025/06/mirpuris-and-the-problem-of-integration/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

that discussion of the roots of the grooming gangs tends to focus on Blair's failed multiculturalism policies, local council/police etc failings.

But what rarely gets talked about is why and how large parts of the northern Mirpuri Pakistani communities were allowed to get to such a self-segregated and dysfunctional state to begin with.
Why was there no research in the 1950s-60s on the clan systems, misogynistic practices prevalent in rural Mirpuri villages when they were encouraged to immigrate? Why PMs from Wilson, Heath, Thatcher etc never appear to make integration of such communities a priority to some extent?

Most stuff just seems to blame PC culture & Tony Blair, who do share a huge amount of blame, but less is asked about why this situation, clearly full of potential issues, was never addressed much from the 60s to 1997...

Yes she does:

The key matter of concern here for Inspectors is that RMBC’s inability to talk about race and the different communities in Rotherham had implications for their approach to dealing with CSE.

In Rotherham, the phenomenon of CSE emerging from the late 1990s onwards concerned a majority of white, female, adolescent or teenage victims and a majority of Pakistani heritage adult male perpetrators. Early concerns raised about CSE by youth workers and others had also repeatedly mentioned taxi drivers.

This predominant involvement of Pakistani heritage men was certainly the view of all those who Inspectors spoke to who had been close to operational work around street grooming and CSE in Rotherham in the previous 15 years. Victims shared this view.

Our review of case files and strategy meetings held about perpetrators and victims as well as other information we came across, confirmed that perpetrators were usually described as being Pakistani men. This was a matter of fact.

However the wider culture in Rotherham we have described meant that from the outset the added dimension of the ethnic background of perpetrators was an awkward and uncomfortable truth which, in the view of the inspection team, affected the way that the Council (and the police) dealt with CSE.

I think that Group sexual exploitation is founded in patriarchy. Perpetrators are the groups who have more physical and societal power than others. Class, race, religion are secondary factors to societal position. Understanding how those factors impact the perpetration and investigation is critical.

Clan/tribalism behaviours are present across all groups, the idea that Christianity is unifying and devoid of this issue is reductive. Sectarianism? Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Plymouth brethren, Jehovah’s witnesses, Baptists, Wee Frees, Methodists…

The UK has a long history of race and religion being pretty homogenous so Class/wealth was the division between the exploited and the exploiters.

We need to do better. The embedded bias which treats a group with higher societal standing differently to a group with less is at the core of injustice.

Who said Christianity was “unifying and devoid of this issue?”

@Ereshkigalangcleg
HTH

Thank you. Not relevant to anything I’ve said but I’d missed the comment.

Until governments and society as a whole are able to have open conversations about cultural differences without fear of being accused of racism or cries of 'but some white people do that too' we won't be able to address anything.

Even an anti Muslim prejudice law is dangerous and unnecessary. They’re laws that protect against racial hate & discrimination. What does this law entail? Can your question about the grooming gang scandal & how it’s occurred become illegal for example. Your pushing to understand how it’s happened, your curiosity and then the answer you come up with may be seen as prejudiced. Even so they’re already act like these laws in place. The school teacher in hiding to this day because he showed a picture of Mohammad, you may think he shouldn’t have but to think he is now in hiding in this country is scary, the kid that scuffed the Quran and the mother having to sit next to the police and headteacher and apologise to the Muslim community, the man who burnt his own Quran as a protest was stabbed and received a longer sentence than the man that stabbed him.

take Ariana grande concert. Where a security guard was suspicious of the bomber but didn’t want to appear racist (another point to validate how we’ve been groomed to ignore our instincts and common sense for a failed ideology) imagine if now it’s illegal to even assume he’s up to no good. You’re well within your rights to think it about any other group

in our schools it’s not one offs. Easter was banned at a school & was going to be replaced with refugee week (to appear more inclusive) how many children has that affected, thinking Easter isn’t just not important but is a bigoted holiday. We hear of the cases where parents aren’t afraid to speak up and expose. But stories like these are always in the paper

I strongly agree with your point about Ariana Grande. Also re the Quran, Muhammad teacher left in fear etc Disgusting. I don't think burning any holy book is helpful personally but no one should be harmed for it in a free country.

Re the schools : I know of that case about the Hampshire primary school but is there really an epidemic unreported or just fringe woke cases being reported by the news? I'm not sure.

Re the law. I see what you mean. It must be drafted carefully. Islam is not a race but a religion (though often correlates with ethnic group) so laws against discriminating based on belief are reasonable but there need to be clear lines drawn.

Some religions also tend to reduce tribalism because the belief system is more universal. Christianity has typically had that effect to some extent which may be why people from the West Indies integrated more. Even when there were people who disapproved, there is nothing within the dominant Christian belief that really supports that, Christianity has always been racially diverse, and that tends to allow for things like intermarriage.

• this is complex. Islam is a universal religion in the sense it encourages conversion. Muhammad allowed Muslim men (only men 🙄) to marry Christian or Jewish women, and 'People of the Book' were assured protection. Muslims of course stretch from Arab Egyptians to European Bosnians, Indians, Iranians, Indonesians, Nigerians etc Muhammad discouraged tribalism, encouraging loyalty to the ummah (worldwide Muslim community instead) and explicitly said skin colour, being Arab etc does not make someone superior.

I think the problem is he didn't go far enough. Inadvertently, by not banning cousin marriage he allowed tribalism to increase. So Islam has spread to many areas but had not stopped tribalism.

Moreover, it's fair to note that North African Middle Eastern & Asian Christians historically haven't necessarily been much more enlightened. Egyptian Coptic women have traditionally lived under a very patriarchal structure, FGM has been practised etc. Indian "St Thomas' Christians traditionally endorsed the caste system. Lebanese Christians have taken a large role as perpetrators as well as victims of sectarian violence. So maybe only some forms of Christianity effectively foster less tribalism.

I think my point is there will be many instances where schools have sacrificed British values & traditions that haven’t been reported. But every few weeks we hear about some wokery in our schools. But after everything I’ve listed previously the government will still expect the indigenous people to turn a blind and not ask questions. The only saving grace being the far right slurs no longer work as the public just don’t accept it anymore. Mainly down to the grooming scandal. No one will accept it

Or DC learning was sacrificed.

When I was in primary I and a few other DC were very ahead of the class so we had some different classes to help us achieve our potential and stop us from being bored which were then stopped due to so many DC in the class not speaking English that the teachers needed to prioritise those DC.

When my Dad complained he was told he was being racist.

And that was in the 80s.

You can’t compare those two cultures.
The Caribbean people are naturally very welcoming, going back to their ancestors from the continent and their attitude towards moving to the “mother country” was very different to other cultures who wanted to move country but maintain their culture.

There are indeed large populations that have not integrated in any way and are very proud of that.
Not sure what that has to do with the likelihood of forming grooming gangs though. Yes they’re in. lose proximity but drug gangs can operate from all over using tech.

It’s bang out of order. Glad your dad stuck up for you. But the brainwashing has been happening for over 40 years. Imagine being called racist because the standards have dropped

My Dad stuck up for me and the other DC whose education was being neglected then removed me from the school and put me in private. Which was achievable then for the working classes with scholarships and assisted places. But shouldn't have been necessary.

Not true. Thete are many indian villagers here in the UK. BUT rape of non Muslim girls is unique to Pakistanis. They do that to hindu girls in Pakistan. Hindus do not rape a girl because she is non hindu - muslim/Christian. To Muslims infidels are worthless. And as a country we are infidel.

I don’t think it was any different. There was always grooming, excusing and overlooking things that were not right.
I was listening to the runaway princesses podcast on Dubai , their fathers influence all over the world, people turned a blind eye to his imprisoned
daughters, he sat with the Queen. Their brother raped women in the uk, without consequence as he has diplomatic immunity.
Mohamed Al-Fated, Eipstein, Andrew, that sort of evil predator always existed.
it’s sickening.

That podcast is excellent. It's disgusting how our government kowtows to Dubai.

That's not accurate, there are definitely cases of Hindu men raping Muslim women in India . In this case an 8 year old Muslim girl was raped and murdered in a Hindu temple.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/12/killing-of-muslim-girl-india-hindu-religious-tensions&ved=2ahUKEwj7w5LC-eCSAxUXWUEAHc4AMWAQFnoECBAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0Mbxd7JoziTMdGEPkonpPE

Muslim women were raped by Hindu men during the Gujarat riots.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-38915854&ved=2ahUKEwi178vd-eCSAxUJQ0EAHTLAO5kQFnoECC8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0_nvcV-nQPny5jgSSoSAZO

Christian woman have been raped by Hindu men in India too.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=cruxnow.com/church-in-asia/2023/07/viral-video-of-assault-on-christian-women-stirs-fresh-outrage-in-india&ved=2ahUKEwj0ls_Q--CSAxXIX0EAHZU2EhoQFnoECFYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3btcxspTB-6-MmFI-vcJHL

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=morningstarnews.org/2025/09/christian-woman-in-india-raped-mother-beaten-unconscious/&ved=2ahUKEwidnefn--CSAxXJWkEAHazrHCMQFnoECCUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3QJ82DFJi-zrLWlFfp84XI

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.vomcanada.com/in-2006-06-07.htm&ved=2ahUKEwioi-_v--CSAxXAd0EAHfaMBVsQFnoECCUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw14F8AAjlGeWVAWHnIvKUib

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=persecution.org/christian-woman-raped-and-murdered-in-central-india/&ved=2ahUKEwix7sT5--CSAxVzW0EAHcJ5Bk0QFnoECCIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0HlOsvh_86ZeNuv4dCj__i

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-26573230&ved=2ahUKEwi2yrWU_OCSAxUGSkEAHQYsKsgQFnoECFYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0U0MltRJpIKc7in1W2EjsH

Modi's aggressive Hindu nationalist agenda has definitely made things more unsafe for non Hindu Indian women.

I agree you can't compare insular clan-based Mirpuri village culture (which isn't the same as Pakistani culture as a whole) to Caribbean immigrant culture. That was one of the issues : 'all foreigners are the same' attitudes,at least to some extent.

I agree grooming gangs do not rely on proximity but the fact they were formed shows that the members, mostly second and third generation, had not integrated into Britain (huge understatement...!)

And as I said to you in my earlier post: 'Rape of Muslim women during Partition and the Gujarat riots, and rape of Sikh women by Hindu police during the 1980s (Operation Shuddhikaran) show that attitudes to non Hindu women are in practice not always respectful either.

Yes, Hindu scriptures do not promote these things but in practice far too many men who followed Hinduism have seen them as permitted. Because of generally rural, misogynistic cultural reasons,, not because of religion (though religion may be used to justify these things).'

This grooming gang problem is inherently tied primarily to clan-based Mirpuri village culture. Importing Karachi or Lahore Pakistanis would not have caused these issues. Muslim immigrants from other countries have not started grooming gangs either.

Yes, there are village-born Indians here, but Indians here are much more likely to be from urban/educated backgrounds (especially the Africans who came during Idi Amin etc era) than the Pakistanis who came are. That is factual.

Canada has had many poorer Indians from villages come historically and recently and Hindus have also shown misogyny and clan-based attitudes, as this article by a Canadian Indian notes. There have been recent cases of girls being raped by Indian immigrants, including a 13 year old.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=nationalpost.com/news/canada/mp-outraged-non-citizen-immigration-sentencing&ved=2ahUKEwiH7YGNmOGSAxULSEEAHY7kG5gQFnoECBwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2ox4CegSLdKW6xuXHtng6e

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/afsun-qureshi-how-indias-rape-culture-came-to-canada#:~:text=The%20attitude%20from%20the%20rest,must%20have%20showed%20an%20ankle.)&text=Within%20my%20own%20extended%20family%2C%20there%20was%20a%20%E2%80%9Cfunny%20uncle,children%20and%20the%20neighbourhood%20kids.&text=The%20community%20simply%20shut%20their,on%20behind%20our%20closed%20doors.

I think a key thing here is that Canadian Indians were more likely to have conservative, insular village-based mores (including around women) as they tended to come from areas like Uttar Pradesh and the Punjab. So it's unsurprising the attitudes Qureshi describes are similar.