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To think the roots of the grooming gangs go back to failures from the 1950s on?

272 replies

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 11:32

I was reading Hina Husain's excellent article here and it made me think

https://unherd.com/2025/06/mirpuris-and-the-problem-of-integration/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

that discussion of the roots of the grooming gangs tends to focus on Blair's failed multiculturalism policies, local council/police etc failings.

But what rarely gets talked about is why and how large parts of the northern Mirpuri Pakistani communities were allowed to get to such a self-segregated and dysfunctional state to begin with.
Why was there no research in the 1950s-60s on the clan systems, misogynistic practices prevalent in rural Mirpuri villages when they were encouraged to immigrate? Why PMs from Wilson, Heath, Thatcher etc never appear to make integration of such communities a priority to some extent?

Most stuff just seems to blame PC culture & Tony Blair, who do share a huge amount of blame, but less is asked about why this situation, clearly full of potential issues, was never addressed much from the 60s to 1997...

Mirpuris and the problem of integration

https://unherd.com/2025/06/mirpuris-and-the-problem-of-integration/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Carla786 · 09/02/2026 18:31

Pollyanna87 · 09/02/2026 17:49

Speaking generally, Islamic extremism was in its infancy in the 50s, and so these men seemed somewhat more benign, I suppose.

Still, Pakistani rural culture in Mipur was just as misogynistic is it is now, probably more so. Covering mandates for women, honour killings, cousin marriage etc

Yes, ideas may have got more strict since then due to stuff like external countries pushing extremism (Saudi for one) but the problem was mainly rooted in the existing culture.

It's astonishing the way the government brought so many people in with so little care about background, and such little attempt at addressing the problem by governments in the 60s, 70s, 80s etc

OP posts:
Pollyanna87 · 09/02/2026 19:19

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 18:31

Still, Pakistani rural culture in Mipur was just as misogynistic is it is now, probably more so. Covering mandates for women, honour killings, cousin marriage etc

Yes, ideas may have got more strict since then due to stuff like external countries pushing extremism (Saudi for one) but the problem was mainly rooted in the existing culture.

It's astonishing the way the government brought so many people in with so little care about background, and such little attempt at addressing the problem by governments in the 60s, 70s, 80s etc

I imagine they merely seemed exotic rather than threatening to our own way of life. But yes, you’re completely correct that the integration (or lack of) was a massive failure.

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 19:32

Pollyanna87 · 09/02/2026 19:19

I imagine they merely seemed exotic rather than threatening to our own way of life. But yes, you’re completely correct that the integration (or lack of) was a massive failure.

Yes, that's true. I suppose that shows the biggest weaknesses of the British Empire - Britain had ruled India until 1947 but clearly governmental people back in Britain were pretty clueless about the former Empire, at least to some degree.

Otoh the West Indians were seen as exotic, to some extent, but this didn't spare them from harsh treatment. Even though most of their community behaved pretty well overall & certainly didn't create problems like mass grooming gangs

OP posts:
Justthethingsthatyoudointhisgarden · 09/02/2026 19:37

You are just stirring up racial hatred OP. And respectfully, given I have an MSc in psychology, I will not be reading your Chat GP article.
There is enough data to show that women are in danger from one thing - men. Men of all cultures, religions and ethnicity. Having a penis is the common denominator.

I shall look forward to your anti trans post tomorrow. You lot can't help themselves.

Bringemout · 09/02/2026 19:39

I actually think if the police had stomped all over it when it first started happening we wouldn’t have the scale of the problem we have now. But lets be honest the police at the time basically didn’t care if crimes were committed against women and girls generally.

I was thinking about this and I think the psychology of this is interesting. The thing is to a lot of aisan men fair skin is highly desirable (I think for a lot of communities this is dying a death a bit). Most of the Pakistani boys I came across growing up despised non muslim women, proper mother/ whore complex So I guess you have this dichotomy of highly desiring white females but also being taught to despise them. I don’t think it’s as simple as these girls were just more available. A lot of asian women get affronted at this idea but it’s true, look at the level of colourism within asian communities that was completely normal 20 years ago. The level of abuse and rage these girls seem to be subjected to isn’t just about wanting to have sex (rape obviously), it was punishment and torture.

I also don’t think you necessarily look at an incoming group and automatically assume that you are going to have problems with rape gangs in a few years. Why would you, at the time it’s not like people were overly concerned about the wellbeing of women anyway, from the perspective of the left as well you would have looked on incoming migrants as workers who may be additionally disadvantaged by their colour, so victims of exploitation really. I think some people seem to still hold the view that if you are from a minority group your crime is less “bad”. Personally I loathe all rapists, whatever their colour and child rapist are on my “should be lined up against the wall and shog” list.

On the colonial thing, Pakistan didn’t exist when Britian colonised Indian but you don’t see indian rape gangs roaming around so it’s not a bloody excuse is it. If it were simply behaviour as a consequence of colonialism you would see more colonised people behaving this way. You don’t, which suggests there is a specific cultural problem at play here. You don’t seem to have punjabi Pakistani rape gangs either. It’s probably extremely specific to a sub population. It would be interesting to see actual origin completely disaggregated to understand exactly who these people are. I also wonder at the rates of cousin marriage within these groups.

There has to be very specific family types, the whole celebrating eid by having your cousins visit and then raping girls thing that blew up on twitter astounded me a bit (two confirmed cases, in that there are court records). Most normal muslim families will be celebrating eid together, eating together, giving gifts, family time etc. I don’t know a single muslim family that would tolerate a bunch of men taking off on eid together to go out and coming back smashed.

I also don’t think it does anything useful to pretend that it’s not happening/didn’t happen or that if it is happening it’s some else's fault. Most Pakistani families will be looking at this and thinking “oh hell no, that is absolutely not the kind of people we are” and they would be right. BUT there is a subsection of the Pakistani community that has fostered this behaviour and either ignored it or joined in. It’s not going to go away, lets not try to find a way to somehow excuse rapists or not hold them accountable because thats what happened before and we left children defenceless, we allowed crimes to be committed against children because British society was too cowardly to just deal with it.

Pollyanna87 · 09/02/2026 19:39

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 19:32

Yes, that's true. I suppose that shows the biggest weaknesses of the British Empire - Britain had ruled India until 1947 but clearly governmental people back in Britain were pretty clueless about the former Empire, at least to some degree.

Otoh the West Indians were seen as exotic, to some extent, but this didn't spare them from harsh treatment. Even though most of their community behaved pretty well overall & certainly didn't create problems like mass grooming gangs

West Indians were English-speaking Christians, though, and they wore Western clothes. Yes, they were treated poorly despite being a good contribution to society, but can’t imagine they were exotic in the same way.

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 19:45

Justthethingsthatyoudointhisgarden · 09/02/2026 19:37

You are just stirring up racial hatred OP. And respectfully, given I have an MSc in psychology, I will not be reading your Chat GP article.
There is enough data to show that women are in danger from one thing - men. Men of all cultures, religions and ethnicity. Having a penis is the common denominator.

I shall look forward to your anti trans post tomorrow. You lot can't help themselves.

What a predictable post! 🙄

OP posts:
Carla786 · 09/02/2026 19:54

Pollyanna87 · 09/02/2026 19:39

West Indians were English-speaking Christians, though, and they wore Western clothes. Yes, they were treated poorly despite being a good contribution to society, but can’t imagine they were exotic in the same way.

Definitely not to the same degree. Probably exotic in the sense that 'these people come from a much hotter country, eat different food, speak different slang etc' but not in the way Mirpuris were.

I was reading Samuel Selvon's 1956 novella The Lonely Londoners recently, a tragicomedy about the early West Indian migrants. The hostility they received was more about being perceived as 'alien' I guess due to skin colour - and also just economic resentment in the still-recovering postwar world.

Pakistani migrants did face racism too of course, but I wonder if being in big communities helped shield them a bit. West Indians being in London helped with integration but probably meant they were a bit more isolated & exposed.

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Carla786 · 09/02/2026 20:02

Bringemout · 09/02/2026 19:39

I actually think if the police had stomped all over it when it first started happening we wouldn’t have the scale of the problem we have now. But lets be honest the police at the time basically didn’t care if crimes were committed against women and girls generally.

I was thinking about this and I think the psychology of this is interesting. The thing is to a lot of aisan men fair skin is highly desirable (I think for a lot of communities this is dying a death a bit). Most of the Pakistani boys I came across growing up despised non muslim women, proper mother/ whore complex So I guess you have this dichotomy of highly desiring white females but also being taught to despise them. I don’t think it’s as simple as these girls were just more available. A lot of asian women get affronted at this idea but it’s true, look at the level of colourism within asian communities that was completely normal 20 years ago. The level of abuse and rage these girls seem to be subjected to isn’t just about wanting to have sex (rape obviously), it was punishment and torture.

I also don’t think you necessarily look at an incoming group and automatically assume that you are going to have problems with rape gangs in a few years. Why would you, at the time it’s not like people were overly concerned about the wellbeing of women anyway, from the perspective of the left as well you would have looked on incoming migrants as workers who may be additionally disadvantaged by their colour, so victims of exploitation really. I think some people seem to still hold the view that if you are from a minority group your crime is less “bad”. Personally I loathe all rapists, whatever their colour and child rapist are on my “should be lined up against the wall and shog” list.

On the colonial thing, Pakistan didn’t exist when Britian colonised Indian but you don’t see indian rape gangs roaming around so it’s not a bloody excuse is it. If it were simply behaviour as a consequence of colonialism you would see more colonised people behaving this way. You don’t, which suggests there is a specific cultural problem at play here. You don’t seem to have punjabi Pakistani rape gangs either. It’s probably extremely specific to a sub population. It would be interesting to see actual origin completely disaggregated to understand exactly who these people are. I also wonder at the rates of cousin marriage within these groups.

There has to be very specific family types, the whole celebrating eid by having your cousins visit and then raping girls thing that blew up on twitter astounded me a bit (two confirmed cases, in that there are court records). Most normal muslim families will be celebrating eid together, eating together, giving gifts, family time etc. I don’t know a single muslim family that would tolerate a bunch of men taking off on eid together to go out and coming back smashed.

I also don’t think it does anything useful to pretend that it’s not happening/didn’t happen or that if it is happening it’s some else's fault. Most Pakistani families will be looking at this and thinking “oh hell no, that is absolutely not the kind of people we are” and they would be right. BUT there is a subsection of the Pakistani community that has fostered this behaviour and either ignored it or joined in. It’s not going to go away, lets not try to find a way to somehow excuse rapists or not hold them accountable because thats what happened before and we left children defenceless, we allowed crimes to be committed against children because British society was too cowardly to just deal with it.

The article in my OP notes they are mostly from clan-based, insular, patriarchal villages in the Mirpur area of rural Kashmir. Yes, cousin marriage including first cousin is extremely prevalent here. It is prevalent across Pakistan and has only started decreasing recently.

This is a difficult subject & can be weaponised wrongly but I DO think it should be mentioned that first cousin marriage repeated over generations lowers IQ. This is probably partly why these attitudes have stayed entrenched in much of the British Mirpuri community. I can imagine low IQ young men might feel frustration at the limitation this places on job options etc, and combined with clear antisocial and psychopathic tendencies in the grooming gang members, this became a deadly combination.

Caveat : No, I am NOT saying ALL British Mirpuris are low IQ. Shabana Mahmood, for one, is a Mirpuri & imo the person who should be the next PM. But unfortunately cousin marriage HAS effected the community IQ. This is another reason why cousin marriage needs to stop.

OP posts:
Carla786 · 09/02/2026 20:06

Bringemout · 09/02/2026 19:39

I actually think if the police had stomped all over it when it first started happening we wouldn’t have the scale of the problem we have now. But lets be honest the police at the time basically didn’t care if crimes were committed against women and girls generally.

I was thinking about this and I think the psychology of this is interesting. The thing is to a lot of aisan men fair skin is highly desirable (I think for a lot of communities this is dying a death a bit). Most of the Pakistani boys I came across growing up despised non muslim women, proper mother/ whore complex So I guess you have this dichotomy of highly desiring white females but also being taught to despise them. I don’t think it’s as simple as these girls were just more available. A lot of asian women get affronted at this idea but it’s true, look at the level of colourism within asian communities that was completely normal 20 years ago. The level of abuse and rage these girls seem to be subjected to isn’t just about wanting to have sex (rape obviously), it was punishment and torture.

I also don’t think you necessarily look at an incoming group and automatically assume that you are going to have problems with rape gangs in a few years. Why would you, at the time it’s not like people were overly concerned about the wellbeing of women anyway, from the perspective of the left as well you would have looked on incoming migrants as workers who may be additionally disadvantaged by their colour, so victims of exploitation really. I think some people seem to still hold the view that if you are from a minority group your crime is less “bad”. Personally I loathe all rapists, whatever their colour and child rapist are on my “should be lined up against the wall and shog” list.

On the colonial thing, Pakistan didn’t exist when Britian colonised Indian but you don’t see indian rape gangs roaming around so it’s not a bloody excuse is it. If it were simply behaviour as a consequence of colonialism you would see more colonised people behaving this way. You don’t, which suggests there is a specific cultural problem at play here. You don’t seem to have punjabi Pakistani rape gangs either. It’s probably extremely specific to a sub population. It would be interesting to see actual origin completely disaggregated to understand exactly who these people are. I also wonder at the rates of cousin marriage within these groups.

There has to be very specific family types, the whole celebrating eid by having your cousins visit and then raping girls thing that blew up on twitter astounded me a bit (two confirmed cases, in that there are court records). Most normal muslim families will be celebrating eid together, eating together, giving gifts, family time etc. I don’t know a single muslim family that would tolerate a bunch of men taking off on eid together to go out and coming back smashed.

I also don’t think it does anything useful to pretend that it’s not happening/didn’t happen or that if it is happening it’s some else's fault. Most Pakistani families will be looking at this and thinking “oh hell no, that is absolutely not the kind of people we are” and they would be right. BUT there is a subsection of the Pakistani community that has fostered this behaviour and either ignored it or joined in. It’s not going to go away, lets not try to find a way to somehow excuse rapists or not hold them accountable because thats what happened before and we left children defenceless, we allowed crimes to be committed against children because British society was too cowardly to just deal with it.

On this point : plenty of Asian women do talk about this & criticise it. Anecdotally, I have an Indian (Hindu fwiw) friend who was extremely pale-skinned as a baby. This was a big thing her parents got praised for by some, which became especially awkward when her skin darkened as she got older. It's really sad these attitudes have been entrenched for so long, though as you say, there is change.

Re the police point: yes, police then & maybe many now sadly didn't really see abuse of working class or perceived 'promiscuous' women and girls as a big issue. Look at the Yorkshire Ripper handling, for one...

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aberamagold · 09/02/2026 20:07

The main issue with 'multiculturalism' is the way the rights of women and children have been sacrificed out of misguided 'respect' for 'other cultures'.
Every child born here should have the same rights and opportunities. No British girls should be attending school in hijabs, or learning to clean caravans instead of learning to read.

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 20:13

aberamagold · 09/02/2026 20:07

The main issue with 'multiculturalism' is the way the rights of women and children have been sacrificed out of misguided 'respect' for 'other cultures'.
Every child born here should have the same rights and opportunities. No British girls should be attending school in hijabs, or learning to clean caravans instead of learning to read.

I think this predates woke or multiculturalism. They entwine, but..

Imo the sad truth is that society doesn't really care about denial of children's rights in subcultures unless it affects the wider community. If the grooming gangs didn't happen, and the issues were solely in-community, (forced marriage, honour killings, etc ) - how much would be done?

Roma & Irish Traveller girls have been ignored for decades, not only due to 'multicultural' ideas but just indifference.

Similar for Haredi boys who are given inadequate secular education often & are sometimes so isolated they can't speak English fluently even in late teens.

OP posts:
soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 20:15

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 19:32

Yes, that's true. I suppose that shows the biggest weaknesses of the British Empire - Britain had ruled India until 1947 but clearly governmental people back in Britain were pretty clueless about the former Empire, at least to some degree.

Otoh the West Indians were seen as exotic, to some extent, but this didn't spare them from harsh treatment. Even though most of their community behaved pretty well overall & certainly didn't create problems like mass grooming gangs

Im not sure on this, I think WI were not seen as exotic, they were seen like the Irish I think (no blacks no Irish), in that they were like us and a sort of acceptance that 'we had to give them a home' but didnt want to give them a home, needed their labour but now have to put up with these lower people around us like a bad smell.

I think they were more or less treated the same as the down and out working classes, not much different.

Whereas Indians were seen as so different they were sort of left to their own enclaves.

cobrakaieaglefang · 09/02/2026 20:47

Common denominator- men- throughout history

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 20:51

soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 20:15

Im not sure on this, I think WI were not seen as exotic, they were seen like the Irish I think (no blacks no Irish), in that they were like us and a sort of acceptance that 'we had to give them a home' but didnt want to give them a home, needed their labour but now have to put up with these lower people around us like a bad smell.

I think they were more or less treated the same as the down and out working classes, not much different.

Whereas Indians were seen as so different they were sort of left to their own enclaves.

That's true, Irish were also seen as similar to us culturally but also unwanted/undesirable.

Tbf Indians from Hindu & Sikh backgrounds tended to integrate much better. That's largely because they tended to come from urban, more educated backgrounds, still religious but less clannish, fundamental etc

OP posts:
Carla786 · 09/02/2026 20:52

cobrakaieaglefang · 09/02/2026 20:47

Common denominator- men- throughout history

Yes, but if we ignore ethnicity, Religion, village norms etc then we can't target this specific problem effectively. There are serious problems among Mirpuri men, & there's no getting around that.

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soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 20:58

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 20:52

Yes, but if we ignore ethnicity, Religion, village norms etc then we can't target this specific problem effectively. There are serious problems among Mirpuri men, & there's no getting around that.

Is it class/caste?

Are many traffickers/abusers from lower castes historically (I mean their historic caste which they're trying to get away from back home so to speak)

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 21:21

soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 20:58

Is it class/caste?

Are many traffickers/abusers from lower castes historically (I mean their historic caste which they're trying to get away from back home so to speak)

Muslims don't have a caste system the way Hinduism does. I don't know enough to say how much the caste system effected Muslims in India historically. But it wasn't a religious thing for them.

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soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 21:28

So the Indian/Pakistani gangs are Muslim, not Hindu?

RichardOnslowRoper · 09/02/2026 21:51

soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 21:28

So the Indian/Pakistani gangs are Muslim, not Hindu?

As far as I know, there are no Indian grooming gangs.

soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 21:52

RichardOnslowRoper · 09/02/2026 21:51

As far as I know, there are no Indian grooming gangs.

That is very interesting.

And quite incredible.

Whats that about then

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 22:14

soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 21:52

That is very interesting.

And quite incredible.

Whats that about then

It's not incredible, I don't think.

Most Indians who have come here are educated & urban. Most Pakistanis who've come here are from the clannish, insular, fundamentalist Mirpur village region of Kashmir.

OP posts:
Carla786 · 09/02/2026 22:16

soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 21:28

So the Indian/Pakistani gangs are Muslim, not Hindu?

Pakistan was specifically created by Jinnah to be a Muslim country for the Muslims of British India (which included modern day Pakistan & Bangladesh). Originally Bangladesh was East Pakistan, but it became a separate country in the 70s. Anyway, the main point is that Pakistan is majority Muslim by design, especially rural regions like Mirpur where UK Pakistanis come from.

OP posts:
soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 22:26

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 22:16

Pakistan was specifically created by Jinnah to be a Muslim country for the Muslims of British India (which included modern day Pakistan & Bangladesh). Originally Bangladesh was East Pakistan, but it became a separate country in the 70s. Anyway, the main point is that Pakistan is majority Muslim by design, especially rural regions like Mirpur where UK Pakistanis come from.

Edited

I know the history of Pakistan and India, Ive researched it a lot (not as formal study), what I wasnt aware of was that you seem to be saying that in terms of grooming gangs from the Indian subcontinent, the members of these criminal networks are ONLY from Pakistan or Pakistani heritage (Muslim), not Indian (Hindu) as such

Which I find very puzzling.

Im not sure I get the refernece to education vs clannish culture because white British men who are educated and not from low clannish/inbred cultures also abuse kids and are part of gangs.

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 22:32

Bringemout · 09/02/2026 19:39

I actually think if the police had stomped all over it when it first started happening we wouldn’t have the scale of the problem we have now. But lets be honest the police at the time basically didn’t care if crimes were committed against women and girls generally.

I was thinking about this and I think the psychology of this is interesting. The thing is to a lot of aisan men fair skin is highly desirable (I think for a lot of communities this is dying a death a bit). Most of the Pakistani boys I came across growing up despised non muslim women, proper mother/ whore complex So I guess you have this dichotomy of highly desiring white females but also being taught to despise them. I don’t think it’s as simple as these girls were just more available. A lot of asian women get affronted at this idea but it’s true, look at the level of colourism within asian communities that was completely normal 20 years ago. The level of abuse and rage these girls seem to be subjected to isn’t just about wanting to have sex (rape obviously), it was punishment and torture.

I also don’t think you necessarily look at an incoming group and automatically assume that you are going to have problems with rape gangs in a few years. Why would you, at the time it’s not like people were overly concerned about the wellbeing of women anyway, from the perspective of the left as well you would have looked on incoming migrants as workers who may be additionally disadvantaged by their colour, so victims of exploitation really. I think some people seem to still hold the view that if you are from a minority group your crime is less “bad”. Personally I loathe all rapists, whatever their colour and child rapist are on my “should be lined up against the wall and shog” list.

On the colonial thing, Pakistan didn’t exist when Britian colonised Indian but you don’t see indian rape gangs roaming around so it’s not a bloody excuse is it. If it were simply behaviour as a consequence of colonialism you would see more colonised people behaving this way. You don’t, which suggests there is a specific cultural problem at play here. You don’t seem to have punjabi Pakistani rape gangs either. It’s probably extremely specific to a sub population. It would be interesting to see actual origin completely disaggregated to understand exactly who these people are. I also wonder at the rates of cousin marriage within these groups.

There has to be very specific family types, the whole celebrating eid by having your cousins visit and then raping girls thing that blew up on twitter astounded me a bit (two confirmed cases, in that there are court records). Most normal muslim families will be celebrating eid together, eating together, giving gifts, family time etc. I don’t know a single muslim family that would tolerate a bunch of men taking off on eid together to go out and coming back smashed.

I also don’t think it does anything useful to pretend that it’s not happening/didn’t happen or that if it is happening it’s some else's fault. Most Pakistani families will be looking at this and thinking “oh hell no, that is absolutely not the kind of people we are” and they would be right. BUT there is a subsection of the Pakistani community that has fostered this behaviour and either ignored it or joined in. It’s not going to go away, lets not try to find a way to somehow excuse rapists or not hold them accountable because thats what happened before and we left children defenceless, we allowed crimes to be committed against children because British society was too cowardly to just deal with it.

'The level of abuse and rage these girls seem to be subjected to isn’t just about wanting to have sex (rape obviously), it was punishment and torture.'

This has been the bit I've least wanted to read about because I just can't stand to know details...

But without discussing graphic details on this thread, I think we should delve into the mindset behind this What the hell was going on with these men? Extreme sectarianism? Combined with misogyny? This wasn't a wartime sexual violence situation (obviously war is no excuse, what I mean is the extreme hatred seemed more like a war situation)

And why did the communities cover it up? Because they approved? Because they didn't approve but held to mafia-style code that you don't hand your clan in? In the case of women I do have sympathy to some extent as women are often kept in a horrible situation within such families and cousin marriage etc limits agency. But that doesn't excuse many women who surely held the same horrible attitudes.

OP posts: