Time for Women with Talent to Take Back Older Female Roles in Pantos

[SpringTimeIsRingTime]

Panto Dames have been a thing since 1806 when a certain Mr Simmons decided to play Mother Goose as a Witch (how original) rather than as a caring grandmother figure. Nowadays panto dames are mainly played by gay men in drag.

I think it's time for talented actresses to take back elder female roles from the tired tropes played by men since the Victorian era.

There is a long way to go, I agree. There has been progress re big hits by women like Waitress, Six, Hadestown, Fun Home, but I agree the situation overall is very unfair.

Is it equally bad re straight plays?

Yes, I have issues especially with RuPaul's show but I don't think the histories are comparable.

Isn't the mum in Hairspray quite a positively portrayed character? I never know how I feel about John Waters stuff but from what I've heard of Hairspray, it's not women-hating.

By the time it’s been this way for 200 years I think we can leave any origin story to the historians, I don’t know your credentials for your assertion here but based on your understanding of the Victorian period they are non existant. Let’s leave panto alone, because this is a non issue. I’d like to remind you you don’t have to buy tickets.

Yes, I think it's counterproductive for a woman's role to be dismissed because it was partly intended to be sexually alluring. As I said, if principal boys were seen as hugely sleazy, Princess Elizabeth wouldn't have been doing it as a teenager in Windsor Castle.

Miss Hannigan is also played by a woman and the role is played exactly the same

I don't have an issue with either of these as they are presented as an all male show. I wouldn't bother going though as I prefer the original Swan Lake to a gimmick.

To be fair, OP is correct that the panto dame tradition really took off with Dan Leno & similar in the 1860s, definitely the Victorian era. It did start around 1806 but wasn't so popular until then.

Keep bringing on the men. Can't wait for Ru Paul to make an appearance.

I the past maybe Hyacinth Bouquet could have been a guest dame.

Not forgetting the most famous dame of them all

The one and only
Hello Possums
Dame Edna Everage
👑👠👛🕶️🎊
X

Musical theatre is pretty much the backbone of modern theatre and is just as relevant and dramatic and emotional

But nice bit of snobbery there

Waitress is another one touring with a heavy female lead

But the PP just meant "plays" because musicals don't count

A snobbery level which is actually harmful to theatres...

Why is saying that musicals are not my thing ‘snobbery?’ It’s a personal preference. I don’t for one minute look unfavourably on them.

Queen Elizabeth wore a Rococo aristocratic man's suit and wig - not a Robin Hood style tunic with tights which is what the actresses wore during the Victorian era. Nice try though.

The fact I prefer straight drama to musicals is not remotely harmful. I tell you what is harmful though, men dominating musical theatre in virtually every respect-composing, writing the book, directing, producing… I wish people would admit this is a huge issue. Don’t get me started on working class creatives…

Well then, maybe the solution is to change the costume to something more like that?

Did 20th century principal boys still have to wear tights and revealing tunics?

200 years is a drop in the ocean.
Blackface started around the same time but no-one's saying that tradition should be preserved...

Straight plays aren't popular and are mostly based off old stories because people like "classics" - but a fair few of those are Agatha Christie plays

Smaller, local theatres are more likely to host newer plays and put calls out specifically for under represented voices

Why have women play prince charming at all?
I'm sure young girls would much prefer a good looking boy in the role.

Matthew Bourne's Swan Lake isn't a gimmick

It's a beautiful interpretation intended to subvert expectations, as are most of his work

You have dismissed then as being a valid form of theatre where female lead is thriving

Dismissing Musicals as you have is a harmful practice because, like it or not, musicals are the current "popular" form of entertainment

Women are also coming stronger and stronger on to the scene, having more of a say and being seen and visible, making their mark

So it's ok for them to cast a "good looking young man" that the women can ogle?

Hippocrasy

There are plenty of older actresses who would jump at the chance but are excluded from playing these roles reserved for men only - even though the character is female.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3925808/Having-male-panto-dame-sexist-claims-Caroline-Quentin-Christopher-Biggins-says-Oh-no-isn-t.html

But it's not the same as blackface and throwing that around as an equivalency isn't helping

(On a side note, yellow face is still a thing in Panto, with Aladdin, and Ballet, with The Nutcracker, that is only just being moved away from and only then slowly)

Re this : Victorian principal boys usually wore tights and short tunics or breeches in a storybook/pageboy style — showing legs, yes, but not burlesque-style or “barely covered.” It was standard theatrical costume, closer to ballet or operetta than anything sleazy. If the tradition had been seen as indecent, it’s unlikely Princess Elizabeth would have been allowed to take part at all.
I agree there was a male gaze element but I don't think Victorian pantos as a whole were as sleazy as you say. The dame tradition is definitely sexist imo but otoh Victorians had burlesque and other more risqué forms or entertainment for prurient men to go to- family pantos would presumably not have been their main outlet.