Hypocrisy in how we frame abuse. UK grooming gangs vs Epstein

[Bowcup]

I’m struggling with the inconsistency in how these cases are discussed.

Epstein wasn’t a one-off predator. It was a vast, organised trafficking operation that ran for years, across multiple locations, with dozens (if not hundreds) of victims, recruiters, enablers, and powerful men in the background.

And the girls he targeted weren’t random.

They were overwhelmingly:

• white
• working-class
• often from care, unstable homes, or financial hardship
• chosen precisely because they were unlikely to be believed or protected

That victim profile is identical to what we hear about in UK grooming cases.

Yet the framing couldn’t be more different.

UK grooming gangs → race, culture, religion endlessly foregrounded
Epstein → “elite abuse of power”, “institutional failure”, “one monstrous individual”

What makes this harder to swallow is that most sexual exploitation in the UK is not carried out by minority groups at all.

According to ONS data and multiple serious case reviews, the majority of perpetrators of group-based child sexual exploitation are white British men. That includes street grooming, online grooming, and organised exploitation. But those cases rarely become cultural flashpoints.

So why is it that:

• when offenders are from a minority background, it’s treated as a racial or cultural problem
• but when offenders are white, wealthy, or powerful, it’s treated as an individual moral failing?

Why wasn’t Epstein discussed as:

“White men exploiting vulnerable white girls is a systemic problem”?

Why didn’t we have wall-to-wall discussion about class, care leavers, and the disposability of poor girls?

It feels like race becomes the story when it’s available as an explanation, and disappears when it would force us to look at who actually holds power.

I’m not denying patterns matter. They do.
But if we’re serious about safeguarding, we can’t selectively apply that logic.

Because right now it looks less like protecting girls and more like choosing who we’re comfortable blaming.

My Muslim best friends at college used to translate what some of the young Muslim men would say in Urdu about their white girlfriends, while those girlfriends were sat on their knee. The word prostitute was commonly used. One of my friends had had sex with a boyfriend herself and we had a plan in place should anyone in her family ever find out. In a culture where women cannot have sex outside marriage without being disowned or worse, women from a culture where sex outside marriage is fine are absolutely seen a certain way.

I also know we are slow to act on issues we perceive as cultural- 15 year olds being sent abroad to forced marriage, child genital mutilation, close-family marriage to the extent of visibly higher disability rates. And I'm sure this was at play when the grooming gangs were researched.

However, I still completely agree with op. The narrative of "save our women and girls" completely ignores how common SA has always been and how impossible prosecution is. I have several female friends who have been victims of rape and none of them got a conviction. One of them was told, at 16, by her (white, working class) rapist that if she went through with the prosecution all his friends would testify she'd slept with them too. It ignores everything we know about "what was she wearing, how much did she drink, does she have sex a lot". It ignores how the media speak about 15 year old girls who "seduce" their teachers. It ignores how we treat girls in care. The ex looked after child I mentored raised concerns that her 14 year old sister was leaving the care home with (white) adult men and they told her there was nothing they could do.

I do not understand how the narrative has shifted to women and girls only being at risk from non white British men and I think it's disingenuous.

I think it’s incorrect to dismiss culture in both these cases. It’s vital to both.

The grooming gangs used a misplaced sense of cultural moral superiority to justify their heinous behaviour.
The ‘lanyard class’ turned a blind eye due to their own culture, one where any hint of an accusation of an ‘ism’ of phobia would be seen as a moral failing far greater than ignoring the truth.

Epstein operated within the culture of the international super rich, where problems can be cleared up with money and a nation’s law’s ignored because you can just flit off somewhere else at the drop of a hat.
His hangers on had a sycophantic culture of happily ignoring, or even participating in, terrible behaviour because to do otherwise didn’t pay in either cash or influence.

It’s all culture.

My mother was a single parent growing up and we had a Pakistani male neighbour. He came over and propositioned her for sex on a set schedule, thankfully was not violent and she 'agreed' and got him to leave. She spoke to our other neighbours who were two unrelated second generation Pakistani women whom she was friendly with. They said it was unsurprising and that he would have done it due to the perception that white women are less moral/worthy and it's ok to treat them like this.

This specific behaviour is not a series of one offs, they are related to deep rooted cultural issues and behaviour norms. The perpetrators themselves say this.

Obviously sex of perpetrators is also a factor which we already know and have known forever. Growing up, there was endless SA that was normalised, covered up, seen as a fact of life or blamed on the victim - it just wasn't cultural in nature. This is just a specific subset and needs to be dealt with specifically.

No one is blaming "all brown people". In fact, most people in this thread are at pains to point it it's wrong to say "Asian rape gangs".

There is a key difference in the examples you gave. Epstein targeted young girls, and their ethnicity was not a factor. if he had only targeted non-white girls, that would be racist.

Pakistani grooming gangs explicitly targeted non-Pakistani girls, and that's why it's racist.

What would happen to a Pakistani man who systematically raped 12 year old Pakistani girls within his community? I suspect it wouldn't be pretty.

The girls themselves would probably be punished. And brutally.

Actually it is believed that Pakistani girls were victims but would not come forward due to various cultural reasons . Their number will likely never be known.

This thread has made me want to know more and I read a few articles on rape and domestic violence in Pakistan yesterday. Including from the charity WAR. I would like to know what the authorities have done to protect the girls in the homes of these rapists.

And to background check men moving to the U.K. to protect women and girls patients (if doctors/nurses) or children (if social workers/teachers) or Police officers or any other job that requires checks to be done.

If authorities in home countries do not record crimes correctly how can the British government do background check and provide valid DBS?

The articles I found made for shocking reading.

Human rights watch has even looked into the Pakistani governments response.

This is an old article but certainly relevant for grooming gangs in the U.K. as it’s a problem that has gone on for years. It is called Crime or Custom? Violence against women in Pakistan. UN refugee agency . Source Human Rights Watch. From 1999.

www.refworld.org/reference/countryrep/hrw/1999/en/40604

Lots of articles and research out there from Pakistan. Our authorities would know the risk to women and girls in the U.K. - they are complicit and they need prosecuting.

I think there are differences in the targeted victims and in many of the cases where perpetrators where their Religion or culture was a common denominator, those Religions and cultures were often specifically used to facilitate the abuse.

Epstein targeted white girls. Not just young girls

Yes, but you're missing the point. The rape gangs specifically targeted white, vulnerable, non-Muslims as they believed that their religion justified them. That motivation and view was a huge factor in why these crimes happened.

The fact that Epstein also trafficked white girls too doesn't change the facts in the case of the rape gangs. I haven't seen any reason yet why Epstein selected white girls. Maybe that was available to him, maybe it was his and his disgusting associates' preference.

Epstein and all his vileness does not get these Pakistani communities off the hook, and we cannot just say "look, rich white men did it too so its nothing to do with communities and religion". Its dishonest and does a huge disservice to the victims.

And didn't just believe their Religion justified it, but often used their Religion or culture to facilitate the abuse.

Often telling the victims they had been forced into arranged marriages with women from their Religion and culture so their white victims who thought their rapist was their 'boyfriend' needed to not tell anyone or the rapist would be shunned or beaten up or murdered by their relatives and community members.

Telling girls it was usual in their Religion or culture to have underage brides and sex with underage girls so even if it was illegal, it was permitted in their Religion or culture with girls that were mature enough so laws didn't matter. Making the girls think they were mature and grown up which most teenage girls want to hear.

Telling girls their wives wouldn't have sex, or perform certain sex acts and that is why they needed their white 'girlfriends' and why their 'girlfriends' were so special.

Telling girls it was normal in their Religion or culture for 'girlfriends' to have sex with their friends and if the girls didn't the rapist would lose respect in their community, be ostracised or beaten up.

Also, Epstein had many non-white victims, he was targeting vulnerable children and adults of any race.

@ThisNewViewer well said. Thanks for expanding on this. I find it shocking after all that has emerged, there are still people who still try to deny any connection to culture and religion.

What evidence do you have for this? Because one of the most prominent survivors sure looks like a woman of colour.

‘He asked me if I wanted to meet a prince’: how Lisa Phillips survived grooming and abuse by Jeffrey Epstein | Podcasts | The Guardian

In which religion is this normal?

”Telling girls it was normal in their Religion or culture for 'girlfriends' to have sex with their friends and if the girls didn't the rapist would lose respect in their community, be ostracised or beaten up.”

I don't think it is "normal" in any religion, however, it is clearly much more common in rural Kashmiri followers of Islam.

I'm finding all this new stuff appalling. That we have people in public office who've essentially enabled Epstein.

'I didn't realise the scale of it' - if that's really their defence, its still pretty clear that they are morally questionable human beings. I don't think you needed to know the scale of it - you needed an ounce of moral values. I'm fucking disgusted and I don't often say that.

Back in 2010+ we knew full well what sexual exploitation was, the government funded multiple social work contracts with local authorities, around sexual exploitation of girls and had done for many years and it was well understood what grooming was.

WTF is wrong with some men?

My pattern recognition/spidey senses /common fcking sense is screaming that it wouldn't be just white English girls targeted by Pakistani grooming gangs , because that is just pure stupidity 🫣 think about it for a second.

Yes, a not insignificant amount of Sikh girls were also targeted.

Can someone explain something to me, I admit i haven't followed either case closely. Many posters have mentioned poor white girls in the care system or from unstable homes as least likely to be believed and therefore targeted. I've also often heard of victims of historical abuse say they didn't report because they wouldn't be believed. Is this true or just a misconception? Because if the typical victim profile is this type of vulnerable girl surely they are the most likely to be believed? Is there really a history of girls being told they are liars despite fitting the profile? And if so, why?

The court transcripts are in the public domain I really recommend you read them. They are shocking and it really makes you wonder why authorities and our current government are doing their best to sweep this under the carpet.

The privately funded rape gang inquiry is still ongoing - you can follow it on X.

These girls (now women) deserve to be heard.

Girls were in care and they were branded prostitutes. It was ‘a lifestyle choice’ apparently. They protected the community rather than raped children. Police, authorities, MPs, teachers, doctors, nurses, social workers knew. They all need privately prosecuting.

Someone pointed out to me the other day maybe it’s the nurses, social workers, journalists, families or perpetrators, councillors etc that are also pushing the ‘whataboutery’ as they too are complicit and have a lot to lose if the rape gang inquiry interviews etc are in the mainstream press and the public want all associated people to face charges.

I agree that it's annoying that people like to frame certain ethnicities as being more likely to groom children when it's not evidenced. And that Epstein's ring demonstrates that this is wrong.

But it's also not wrong to not highlight the abuse of power (which is always present and in this case it's overwhelming.
Abusers target people they see as vulnerable. This happens in pretty much all abuse cases, whether sexual abuse, domestic abuse, workplace bullying. And is why we should fight really hard against people being silenced. And fight against the virgin and the whore principle that's often used to silence victims (for example, in rape cases whether a woman's sexual history is used to suggest there wasn't rape).Its interesting (and very wrong) to see the principle being used in the Alex Pretti shooting. Hopefully even more people will be aware of how this is used to get perpetrators off in the future and important it is to give the vulnerable voices.

https://actionagainstabuse.wordpress.com/child-abuse-need-to-know/on-topic-child-sex-exploitation-laura-wilson/

I agree these women were vulnerable. This young woman was groomed from just turned 11. She went to a special educational needs school. She was murdered when her son was 4 months old. The article calls it an ‘honor killing’.

The article says ‘One of the most disturbing facts in this case, is that the local childrens’ safegarding board tried to hide the fact that she was known to be at risk from asian sex gangs and was groomed for sex from the age of 11 when they published the serious case review into her care. The council also went to court to try to hide these facts, but after the full report was leaked to national newspapaer The Times, abandonned legal action.

There is also a daily mail article which has more details about Laura Wilson and how social services knew and covered it up. Also a bbc article.

It’s disgusting and these authorities need prosecuting. She was known to 15 different services apparently. It’s in so many people’s interests for the rape gang scandal to be swept under the rug.

Regarding culture - some of the defendents in rapes in Britain cite not understanding British culture as a defense for their crimes. Adil Rashid is one such example - he claimed his Muslim upbringing meant he didn’t understand sex with a child was illegal. Judge Stokes sentenced Rashid to nine months youth custody, suspended for two years, along with a two-year probation supervision order.

Perpetrators of abuse are masonic satanic Jews so they own media

Please tell me that's sarcasm.

@Treacling that is horrendous. Either Islam is the problem, or this individual is a dirty liar and citing Islam is an aggravating factor, besmirching an entire religion to try to get his filthy disgusting self off a charge, not mitigation. Can’t have it both ways.