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Hypocrisy in how we frame abuse. UK grooming gangs vs Epstein

156 replies

Bowcup · 02/02/2026 09:53

I’m struggling with the inconsistency in how these cases are discussed.

Epstein wasn’t a one-off predator. It was a vast, organised trafficking operation that ran for years, across multiple locations, with dozens (if not hundreds) of victims, recruiters, enablers, and powerful men in the background.

And the girls he targeted weren’t random.

They were overwhelmingly:

  • white
  • working-class
  • often from care, unstable homes, or financial hardship
  • chosen precisely because they were unlikely to be believed or protected

That victim profile is identical to what we hear about in UK grooming cases.

Yet the framing couldn’t be more different.

UK grooming gangs → race, culture, religion endlessly foregrounded
Epstein → “elite abuse of power”, “institutional failure”, “one monstrous individual”

What makes this harder to swallow is that most sexual exploitation in the UK is not carried out by minority groups at all.

According to ONS data and multiple serious case reviews, the majority of perpetrators of group-based child sexual exploitation are white British men. That includes street grooming, online grooming, and organised exploitation. But those cases rarely become cultural flashpoints.

So why is it that:

  • when offenders are from a minority background, it’s treated as a racial or cultural problem
  • but when offenders are white, wealthy, or powerful, it’s treated as an individual moral failing?

Why wasn’t Epstein discussed as:

“White men exploiting vulnerable white girls is a systemic problem”?

Why didn’t we have wall-to-wall discussion about class, care leavers, and the disposability of poor girls?

It feels like race becomes the story when it’s available as an explanation, and disappears when it would force us to look at who actually holds power.

I’m not denying patterns matter. They do.
But if we’re serious about safeguarding, we can’t selectively apply that logic.

Because right now it looks less like protecting girls and more like choosing who we’re comfortable blaming.

OP posts:
Bringemout · 03/02/2026 08:09

Most of the men who raped the girls will never be brought to justice, the sheer number of rapes experienced by some of these girls means there are men walking around who paid to rape a little girl or settled a debt with a rape and they will never be brought to justice. The grooming gangs used personal networks so the vast majority of rapes were by other Pakistani men.

I think if anything the proportion of offenders who are of Pakistani ethnicity is actually going to be much higher than we will ever know. No not just pakistani men rape, we all know that.

Whats unusual about these specific cases is how many people operated in family groups, including one family where one of the leaders son’s would turn up in his school uniform. This is a very specific crime, men were able to call up loads of other men on their phone list who were family members and invite them to rape children. I think most of us come from families where if someone phoned you up and offered you a drunk child you would decline. It’s not in the numbers it’s in the details of the offending that make this different. Tbf it’s extraordinary to me that Epstein got away with it for as long as he did and that he found so many fellow perverts. But the manner of offending in the UK grooming gangs is culturally very specific.

Everanewbie · 03/02/2026 10:40

Talking about Pakistani rape gangs is not "side lining" anything. Raising awareness for prostate cancer in middle age men is not "side lining" breast cancer awareness. The presence of other evils doesn't detract from said evil's impact and horror.

In any case, do you honestly think that the Epstein case is under reported? Do you ever see any talking heads on TV trying to minimise Epstein and his associates with crap like "well, the majority of sex offences are perpetrated by working class men, so we shouldn't single out international billionaires"?

I am sorry that the undeniable truth, that a certain section of the Pakistani community, a sizeable minority, deem it culturally acceptable to groom and systematically abuse white (and Sikh) vulnerable girls, with the cooperation and participation of the extended family, offends your world view that minorities are somewhere near the top of the hierarchy of victimhood, and that the white man is the ultimate villain.

EasternStandard · 03/02/2026 10:46

Owly11 · 03/02/2026 07:54

The 'reporting' problem with the Asian grooming gangs was that it was covered up and denied to be real by police, agencies and the press precisely because of the race issue. So the problem was exactly the other way round from how you present it.

Yes good point.

Treacling · 03/02/2026 10:59

Why do people use the term ‘Asian’ grooming gangs not Pakistani Grooming gangs/ Rape gangs? I am not aware of it being Chinese or Japanese men involved. Tho I am happy to be corrected.

If it wasn’t Asian men then on this thread it appears we are tripping over to be culturally sensitive rather than factual. Is that due to worries about perception?

What I find alarming regarding rape gangs is the amount of relatives involved. How does it go from having a family meal to organise the rape and torture of girls with your brother or your cousin? Threatening to firebomb houses. Etc. Then family members campaigned outside court in support of abusers. I think that family members joining together to rape needs investigating more.

Are girls in these extended families at risk? Are the girls treated correctly and removed into care if it’s appropriate? It suggests it’s acceptable in some families to rape because if not where are the reports of men going to the police and saying ‘my cousin/co worker/ brother asked me to rape a girl with him’.

How do you go from having a family meal together - to raping and torturing girls on dirty mattresses in takeaways together? I am not naive and I work with mainly men but this is surely a huge risk to girls and women in their family and surely some men said ‘no mate that’s wrong’ so why did they cover it up too? Or did they report it and the police failed to take action?
Do some cultures have a history of families raping together?
How did they choose which friends to ask? Were other family involved but loyalties mean they can’t mention names?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/08/twelve-men-sentenced-for-sexual-exploitation-of-keighley-teenager

This guardian article lists men at the bottom - brothers and half brothers. Poor behaviour in the dock. Humiliation of children. Police, teachers knowing. And it’s the first one I stumbled on when googling.

The pellicot case showed men getting together online via a website of a shared interest. Rape gangs knew each other face to face as friend, family and coworkers. If this does not have a cultural element does that mean we have many cousins and brothers over Britain raping together?

Rape Gang Enquiry - Fiona Goddard is giving evidence today and has waived her right to anonymity- very brave woman.

Twelve men sentenced for sexual exploitation of Keighley teenager

Girl was 13 when men aged from 19 to 63 began sexual abuse, including daylight gang rape near town centre

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/08/twelve-men-sentenced-for-sexual-exploitation-of-keighley-teenager

Treacling · 03/02/2026 11:03

A quick google brings up the Evans brothers which was high profile as apparently unusual

Bringemout · 03/02/2026 12:04

Yeah I don’t get how you even start the conversation “hey mate, hows aunty shabnam… the kids alright? Listen I got two 15 yr olds I’ve injected with heroin, you wanna come around”.

These people are fucking depraved and it points to a specific cultural problem within these particular families and the attitude towards females generally, children and specifically white females. One of the things that came up was cousin marriage, no-one says anything even if they don’t like it because everyone you associate with is family.

One thing that came out of epstein for me was how many men seem to be hebephiles. Fucking revolting.

EasternStandard · 03/02/2026 12:36

Treacling · 03/02/2026 10:59

Why do people use the term ‘Asian’ grooming gangs not Pakistani Grooming gangs/ Rape gangs? I am not aware of it being Chinese or Japanese men involved. Tho I am happy to be corrected.

If it wasn’t Asian men then on this thread it appears we are tripping over to be culturally sensitive rather than factual. Is that due to worries about perception?

What I find alarming regarding rape gangs is the amount of relatives involved. How does it go from having a family meal to organise the rape and torture of girls with your brother or your cousin? Threatening to firebomb houses. Etc. Then family members campaigned outside court in support of abusers. I think that family members joining together to rape needs investigating more.

Are girls in these extended families at risk? Are the girls treated correctly and removed into care if it’s appropriate? It suggests it’s acceptable in some families to rape because if not where are the reports of men going to the police and saying ‘my cousin/co worker/ brother asked me to rape a girl with him’.

How do you go from having a family meal together - to raping and torturing girls on dirty mattresses in takeaways together? I am not naive and I work with mainly men but this is surely a huge risk to girls and women in their family and surely some men said ‘no mate that’s wrong’ so why did they cover it up too? Or did they report it and the police failed to take action?
Do some cultures have a history of families raping together?
How did they choose which friends to ask? Were other family involved but loyalties mean they can’t mention names?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/08/twelve-men-sentenced-for-sexual-exploitation-of-keighley-teenager

This guardian article lists men at the bottom - brothers and half brothers. Poor behaviour in the dock. Humiliation of children. Police, teachers knowing. And it’s the first one I stumbled on when googling.

The pellicot case showed men getting together online via a website of a shared interest. Rape gangs knew each other face to face as friend, family and coworkers. If this does not have a cultural element does that mean we have many cousins and brothers over Britain raping together?

Rape Gang Enquiry - Fiona Goddard is giving evidence today and has waived her right to anonymity- very brave woman.

Fair point about Asian in the description

Mixedmix · 03/02/2026 12:39

The Rochdale grooming gangs got away with it for decades because the police didn’t want to intervene due to the race of the rapists. They didn’t care about the young white victims.

canuckup · 03/02/2026 12:45

Nope, because in the North of England especially 'Asian' means Pakistani/Bangladeshi heritage. It doesn't really include anyone Chinese.

Not sure why it evolved like that... Probably wanted to sound more inclusive than Pakistani

canuckup · 03/02/2026 12:48

PollyBell · 03/02/2026 02:37

And where are the parents in all this? handing these children over to these men

Good point. Most victims are disaffected children of parents who aren't that involved. Child may also be especially vulnerable i.e. in care.

Sartre · 03/02/2026 12:54

The issue for me is the far right aren’t overly keen on talking about Epstein and co because they were largely white whereas the Rochdale grooming gangs are fair game because they were primarily British Asians. They only want to protect girls and women when it suits their racist rhetoric.

EasternStandard · 03/02/2026 13:09

Sartre · 03/02/2026 12:54

The issue for me is the far right aren’t overly keen on talking about Epstein and co because they were largely white whereas the Rochdale grooming gangs are fair game because they were primarily British Asians. They only want to protect girls and women when it suits their racist rhetoric.

Pretty much everyone is talking about Epstein. The ones most to gain politically from not doing so is Labour.

HelmholtzWatson · 03/02/2026 13:16

Sartre · 03/02/2026 12:54

The issue for me is the far right aren’t overly keen on talking about Epstein and co because they were largely white whereas the Rochdale grooming gangs are fair game because they were primarily British Asians. They only want to protect girls and women when it suits their racist rhetoric.

Yeah because the far right are clearly the “issue” here, not the rape of tens of thousands of children.

CanSeeClearlyNowTheRainHasGone · 03/02/2026 13:21

MrsTerryPratchett · 02/02/2026 21:33

I'm willing to bet that average age of marriage, to pick one measure, and women's economic success are a +1 correlation.

No, women aren't the same. And BTW I note that in your fantasy, the victims are still female. Which is interesting and telling.

The victims are female because you asserted that VAW would disappear if women were in charge.

You didn't mention male victims in either scenario. That's probably even more telling.

I'm willing to bet that average age of marriage, to pick one measure, and women's economic success are a +1 correlation

They're not. But since you want to bet on it why don't you rock up with some evidence or statistics.

You're long on assertions (as per your original one) but seriously short on facts.

Treacling · 03/02/2026 13:45

My social group is very mixed politically and I respectfully disagree about Epstein - most people are saying how disgusting Prince Andrew, Epstein and other celebrities are (including politicians).

If I scroll back through my FB some of the most politically active have never mentioned rape gangs apart from to ‘what about’. But they are posting about Epstein. This is purely anecdotal of course. But one has posted that the far right always discuss grooming gangs due to racism but don’t say much about Epstein - that poster has never posted about grooming before - I’ve just scrolled back through the fb feed.

Ive just looked at a few (what I would class as) right wing X posters and all have mentioned Epstein this week.

Katie Hopkins - I can’t repeat on here what she has said but she has very clearly condemned all participants in Epstein.

Tommy Robinson - definitely tweeted on Epstein ‘we must see arrests’.

Kelly-Jay Keen - definitely mentioned.

Ben Habib - leader of Advance U.K. - mentioned and quite a long post.

Elon Musk - definitely posted more than once - snippets include him saying he was asked many times to go to the island and refused. Asks for the videos to be shown with all victims blurred out to show perpetrators.

What I haven’t checked is if any left wing posters have posted about Rape Gangs in the past 12 months or about the privately funded rape gang enquiry.

Sorry if these examples don’t fit people’s perception of Right Wing - I have friends from all political persuasions and understand right wing is subjective. But I would think of these posters are being politically to the right and all (except maybe Habib) are pretty well known if you follow politics.

JenniferBooth · 03/02/2026 14:47

Bowcup · 02/02/2026 09:53

I’m struggling with the inconsistency in how these cases are discussed.

Epstein wasn’t a one-off predator. It was a vast, organised trafficking operation that ran for years, across multiple locations, with dozens (if not hundreds) of victims, recruiters, enablers, and powerful men in the background.

And the girls he targeted weren’t random.

They were overwhelmingly:

  • white
  • working-class
  • often from care, unstable homes, or financial hardship
  • chosen precisely because they were unlikely to be believed or protected

That victim profile is identical to what we hear about in UK grooming cases.

Yet the framing couldn’t be more different.

UK grooming gangs → race, culture, religion endlessly foregrounded
Epstein → “elite abuse of power”, “institutional failure”, “one monstrous individual”

What makes this harder to swallow is that most sexual exploitation in the UK is not carried out by minority groups at all.

According to ONS data and multiple serious case reviews, the majority of perpetrators of group-based child sexual exploitation are white British men. That includes street grooming, online grooming, and organised exploitation. But those cases rarely become cultural flashpoints.

So why is it that:

  • when offenders are from a minority background, it’s treated as a racial or cultural problem
  • but when offenders are white, wealthy, or powerful, it’s treated as an individual moral failing?

Why wasn’t Epstein discussed as:

“White men exploiting vulnerable white girls is a systemic problem”?

Why didn’t we have wall-to-wall discussion about class, care leavers, and the disposability of poor girls?

It feels like race becomes the story when it’s available as an explanation, and disappears when it would force us to look at who actually holds power.

I’m not denying patterns matter. They do.
But if we’re serious about safeguarding, we can’t selectively apply that logic.

Because right now it looks less like protecting girls and more like choosing who we’re comfortable blaming.

For two days on the trot Loose Women have had debates about Epstein. But complete radio silence on the conviction of the killer of Rhiannon Whyte. I did see a clip of Siobhan Whyte being interviewed on GB News. But havent seen this being discussed much if at all on any other TV news outlet. I just must have missed it.

EasternStandard · 03/02/2026 14:51

JenniferBooth · 03/02/2026 14:47

For two days on the trot Loose Women have had debates about Epstein. But complete radio silence on the conviction of the killer of Rhiannon Whyte. I did see a clip of Siobhan Whyte being interviewed on GB News. But havent seen this being discussed much if at all on any other TV news outlet. I just must have missed it.

Yes where is her voice in the news?

JenniferBooth · 03/02/2026 15:00

EasternStandard · 03/02/2026 14:51

Yes where is her voice in the news?

Exactly. A five year old boy lost his mother.

Bowcup · 03/02/2026 15:19

Tommy Robinson was mentioned in the Epstein files

OP posts:
Everanewbie · 03/02/2026 15:34

Bowcup · 03/02/2026 15:19

Tommy Robinson was mentioned in the Epstein files

What does that prove? Epstein and Steve Bannon discussed his contempt of court conviction via text. Does that fact mean we should stick our heads in the sand about Pakistani rape gangs?

Bringemout · 03/02/2026 15:42

I would also point out than other than handing over any brit guilty of wrongdoing Epstein is not actually our problem, him and his disgusting friends are americas problem primarily (I haven’t forgotten about Mandleson and Andrew should be in jail imo).

The fact that we talk more about Epstein than we do grooming gangs shows something doesn’t it. So many pages in newspapers devoted to what america does, Epstein, Ice, etc etc yet we have so many problems of our own and people go quiet about those.

I saw one woman brought a civil case against her abuser and was awarded 200k, I hope more women take this option. I think there was a woman on here once who was a victim, she said she will never come forward (which is absolutely her right). But it means there are so many victims we don’t know about and perpetrators we don’t know about. But yeah lets worry more about paedophiles from other countries rather than the nonces infesting our own towns.

Bringemout · 03/02/2026 18:47

Christ that enquiry set up by survivors just had a woman say she was raped by hundreds of men when she was a kid. Hundreds. Christ I feel sick, how many will get away with it. As I said, I think the level of offending is probably far worse than we actually know.

I increasingly loathe our useless institutions, I would love to see police, social workers and politicians prosecuted for this.

Also echo lets stop using asian to try to hide behind communities that have nothing to do with this, there weren’t japanese, indian, philippino rape gangs were there? The more honest we are the more acceptable it will be to just to name the problem and stamp it out.

JenniferBooth · 03/02/2026 19:40

Were GB News the only ones to give Siobhan Wyte a voice?

Treacling · 04/02/2026 06:23

@Bringemout

yes the inquiry revealed she was raped by 600-700 men in Britain as a child.

There was so much outrage on MN, quite rightly, over Giselle Pellicot. Yet very little over this harrowing information of a child being raped by hundreds of men in OUR country. Why?

Why are the mainstream press not covering it?
Why are very few MPs discussing it?
Why so few threads on MN about it? (I admit I may have missed them so I hope to be corrected).

So much time discussing Americas Epstein issues yet silence on the gang rape of thousands of girls in Britain. Why? (And I believe the government should ask the USA if they want Andrew and Mandelson and we should ship them there at our expense).

Yet the government clearly hope the rape gang matter will just disappear. It has come to resort to a public crowd funder to show the girls we believe them and want justice for them.

Private prosecutions are clearly the way forward. Go after these scumbags money and assets.

I am glad the government are acting on Mandelson and looking at removing his peerage (though why Starmer ignored advice about Mandelson I do not know). I think anyone with an interest in politics knew he was a wrong ‘un. If only they acted this decisively when it comes to the gang rape and torture of children in Britain.

I read that Siobhan has not even been mentioned in parliament by the government. I have not verified it. I am unsure if it was on GB News.

Sadiq Khan is on record recently saying there are no rape gangs in London (it’s a very frustrating conversation with Susan Hall which you can find on X and YouTube) . Either London have not got this issue - which I really hope is true. Or he’s lying. Or he’s incompetent and lying when he should say I will investigate. I imagine the private inquiry may shed some light.

https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/rape-gangs-1

Over 96% of rapes don’t get convicted. This article says 99% of reported rapes do not lead to a conviction.

www.citystgeorges.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/2022/04/new-scorecards-show-under-1-of-reported-rapes-lead-to-conviction-criminologist-explains-why-englands-justice-system-continues-to-fail

The grooming gang members didn’t need an Epstein Island. They raped with the consent of authorities in Britain.

Rape Gangs (1)

Questions to the Mayor: In 2019 the Met Police Commander Sue Williams told Alexis Jay that there were no ‘rape gangs’ in London. In Professor Alexis Jay’s Child Sexual Exploitation by Organised Networks Investigation Report from February 2022 she notes...

https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/rape-gangs-1

Treacling · 04/02/2026 06:31

As a mother it concerns me that Britain is no doubt known globally for being a light touch on grooming gangs that rape our children.

Why wouldn’t Peodos or rapists come here to rape? 99% chance of getting away with rape IF it’s reported. Men go to vast lengths to rape - a move to Britain isn’t difficult.

Yet we bury our heads in the sand, crying far right racism and fill our news headlines with Epstein Island and Prince Andrew ignoring a young woman who this week said she was raped by 600-700 men in Britain and has struggled to get justice as the authorities covered up the crimes.

It’s ridiculous.