Page 23 | To be disturbed by wilfull ignorance around genetic inbreeding?

M9009 · 2026-01-26T19:41:44+00:00

I've come from a country were cousin marriage and indeed marriage to any close relative if illegal. I've recently started working in a dialysis unit and I'm so disturbed by how many parents are young children born of first cousin marriage. Usually from South Asian backgrounds. Today I was speaking to one parents who has 9 children, all in need of kidney transplants. The eldest 2 have already had theirs. Parents are first degree cousins and each have various medical problems of their own. Why, as a society, do we allow these marriages? It seems so cruel to the children who are born with medical and genetic problems. Maybe I'm easily shocked, I don't know.

Carla786 · 27/01/2026 18:15

OpheliaWasntMad · 27/01/2026 17:55

I think you are getting mixed up - consanguinity and endogamy are different things .
This thread is about first cousin marriage through generations- not about marrying within the same religious or ethnic community ( which is endogamy)

Show quote history

Exactly. Rereading Chaim Potok's novel about Orthodox Jews in 1940s Brooklyn, The Promise, (very good btw) I noticed the protagonist Reuven almost marries his first cousin Rachel. But first cousin marriage isn't portrayed as the default. For a long time it was seen as OK in Ashkhenazi communities if it did happen, but not super common- so less issues, and families now generally test for stuff like Tay-Sachs, even the very strict ones like Haredi who are more closed off from secular world.

Myyearmytime · 27/01/2026 18:18

KatiePricesKnickers · 26/01/2026 20:05

By years ago you actually mean over 100 years ago.
Things have moved on, at least they had.

Show quote history

Queen Elizabeth the second married her 1 cousin.

Prince Charles married lady Diane who was related to bits of royal famliy Charles was not related too.
Which why William and Harry had to marry out of the famliy .
We can't ban something the royal family does

Carla786 · 27/01/2026 18:20

Bringemout · 27/01/2026 04:29

Most of the Muslim girls I grew up with had zero desire to marry their cousins so I think in a few generations it will sort itself out anyway. My only concern is people performing a nikkah without a civil marriage which is not great for women if it were banned. Is it Denmark who banned cousin marriage because they think it will reduce clan based criminality? I definitely struggle to not see this is stomach churning (not muslim, absolutely banned in my religion) but so did many of my muslim friends. I don’t think there are loads of young men and women who are really super keen.

I’m asian and grew up in a very asian place, some families would have agreed marriages so cousins would be able to migrate to the UK. It often meant british muslims were stuck with spouses that grew up in very different environments with very different cultures and expectations. The changes to overseas spouses rules definitely meant a few men and women breathed a sigh of relief.

This is going to be controversial but here goes, communities where there are high pairings of british raised plus foreign spouses who are related to them will struggle to move forward culturally on womens rights etc. You just have waves of more conservative people embedding conservative views in the new families they create. The grooming gangs scandal really highlighted how these networks of cousins functioned, high loyalty to the clan, low empathy for anyone outside the clan. They abused as families. You saw this in the level of abuse coming from women in these families directed at the victims instead of shame and embarrassment (not saying women are responsible for mens actions but damn right I’d be fucking ashamed if a man in my family did those things) which would be more the norm.

Reducing chain migration is one way to shift the dial on that and I actually think it’s one of the reasons the rules were brought in the first place. I don’t think most british born asians want a foreign spouses unless they are someone they fell in love with themselves anyway. For most women anyway it’s not appealing, for some men it may be because they believe they will have more control of their wives.

Great post

Carla786 · 27/01/2026 18:20

Myyearmytime · 27/01/2026 18:18

Queen Elizabeth the second married her 1 cousin.

Prince Charles married lady Diane who was related to bits of royal famliy Charles was not related too.
Which why William and Harry had to marry out of the famliy .
We can't ban something the royal family does

Show quote history

Come on - first cousins is especially bad, and that has not been done since Queen Vicky back in the 1850s

LeaderBee · 27/01/2026 18:21

I thought the risks from genetic inbreeding with a first cousin were incredibly low and the risk only becomes significant if that inbreeding then continues for a few more generations?

Carla786 · 27/01/2026 18:21

Hopingforaholiday · 27/01/2026 15:44

I do think a ban would send a strong message and also give the women concerned additional ammunition to say no. Education can only go so far. Even if rates dropping they are still extremely high in some areas and the human toll and financial cost is huge. Yes some may try and circumvent with religious only ceremonies but if visas are required they’d need legal marriage route.
It could have been done in the legislation raising age to 18, seems a missed opportunity.
It’s always the male religious leaders speaking for the community. Never the young women who will bear the burden of their children dying or caring for disabled children.
I used to review medical notes and some were heartbreaking. One had an entry when she was 15 or 16 with her reporting to a teacher she was at risk of forced marriage to a cousin. There was some sort of ss referral but nothing else. She’d obviously been prevailed upon as a couple of years later she was mum to a disabled child. Notes reported she was in a consanguineous marriage. More disabled children born. There was a line in a report saying she parented alone as husband spent extended time back in his home village in Pakistan. Maybe if had been illegal it would have spared her and those like her.

I agree re male religious leaders being the ones listened to.

ComtesseDeSpair · 27/01/2026 18:22

HelenaWilson · 27/01/2026 17:29

We don't marry our cousins in the UK in the 21st century. It's incestuous and, so often, horribly damaging for the resulting children. It must stop.

But how do you prevent cousins from marrying in Pakistan, or anywhere else where it's legal, then coming to live in the uk?

(Does anyone have any figures for cousin marriages and numbers/percentages of children born with genetic disorders in Pakistan?)

For many in the Pakistani diaspora, marriage has historically been used as a vehicle for relatives back in Pakistan to obtain British citizenship, for which they’ll require a legally valid civil marriage here. Legislating against cousin marriage would put a barrier to that and be effective in those cases. It wouldn’t, of course, prevent two British-born Pakistani cousins from marrying only with nikkah (which then has the added issue of leaving women in a culture which can already make them vulnerable who are only religiously and not legally married stripped of the legal protections marriage has.)

On the second point, Pakistan is a very disparate country with a significant uneducated, poor, and rural population. Many areas won’t report or have this data centralised; many disabled children will simply die without any record of their disability; and as disability is often seen among uneducated Muslims as manifestation or punishment of sin, many families will keep disabled family members hidden away out of shame.

Carla786 · 27/01/2026 18:22

Bringemout · 27/01/2026 07:34

I’m starting to wonder if a lot of the income disparities we see between different asian groups can be explained by this as well. We have a large Pakistani diaspora and in Pakistan cousin marriage is something like over 70% of marriages. Theres a marked difference between Pakistani and Indian income deciles and given no long ago they were basically from the same country this is extremely interesting. Getting rid of cousin marriage may see an improvement in the material wellbeing of people from a Pakistani ethnicity.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/income-distribution/latest/

I agree

Imdunfer · 27/01/2026 18:23

Myyearmytime · 27/01/2026 18:18

Queen Elizabeth the second married her 1 cousin.

Prince Charles married lady Diane who was related to bits of royal famliy Charles was not related too.
Which why William and Harry had to marry out of the famliy .
We can't ban something the royal family does

Show quote history

She did not.

Prince Philip was only a very distant cousin via Queen Victoria, and there were no restrictions on Harry and William.

UltimateSloth · 27/01/2026 18:25

Myyearmytime · 27/01/2026 18:18

Queen Elizabeth the second married her 1 cousin.

Prince Charles married lady Diane who was related to bits of royal famliy Charles was not related too.
Which why William and Harry had to marry out of the famliy .
We can't ban something the royal family does

Show quote history

No Queen Elizabeth didn't marry her first cousin. Prince Philip was her second cousin once removed. Generally you share the same amount of DNA with a second cousin as with a stranger. And Charles and Diana's common ancestors were more distant than that. Tudor era I believe.

TheDaysAreGettingLongerAgain · 27/01/2026 18:26

Minutewaltz · 27/01/2026 13:51

OneNewEagle · Today 01:11
its not something that would be banned in the uk due to the class structure and the way they keep the money in their family over the generations.

Can you give an example in the past 100 years of some families who have married their cousins to keep money in the family?
In landed families primo geniture is generally practiced so if a daughter married her cousin who was also from a landowning family, she wouldn’t be bringing any money, land or works of art - or at least very little - to her husband’s family.

Queen Victoria and Queen Elizabeth both married their first and second cousins respectively.

Carla786 · 27/01/2026 18:26

Pinotpivot · 27/01/2026 09:55

Again identifying if people are marrying cousins would mostly be done on a "sign to say you aren't related basis"/self reported.

Many of the cultures where couples marrying is prevalent, would lie about it but also wouldnt have easily traceable documentation at hand. It would be partially based on people born in other countries, or people not overly engaged in the system eg travellers. Even using uk records is really tricky and time intensive.

Many of those cultures aren't also bothered about an "english" legal marriage. There's nothing to stop, or trace people doing faith ceremonies in non registered venues or their back gardens. My wedding in the eyes of my culture wasn't the day I had the registrars!

I think banning it will just lead to people lying about it. As a nhs worker its helpful to know if there is a risk, but id have no way of knowing if people lied, and they would be motivated to lie if they felt they/the baby would recieve different care

How many people here would consent (and pay for) the government taking dna in order to allow you to marry?

Besides its really not marriage people are worried about, it would be dna testing when pregnant. Then what would you do if you discover it was a cousin cousin child? Force an abortion? Take it in to care?

That's why its helpful to have targeted education and voices within that community, to stop faith leaders doing ceremonies where ever they are, so people that rent venues might not, so that the people themselves dont think its a great idea

Us all shouting it should be illegal and isn't it gross doesnt change a thing for them or the children other than reinforce an "us vs them" mentality where they become more closed off to nhs recommendations
Its bloody hard work to get people like traveller girls to stay in the system eg regular nhs support, schooling, health related classes. They dont need an ounce of encouragement to assume that we hate them all and want to persecute them

Edited

I agree.

I think esp focusing on the 'incest' angle is wrong. If people feel they're being told they're sexually perverse then they'll be harder to persuade

Myyearmytime · 27/01/2026 18:26

Carla786 · 27/01/2026 18:20

Come on - first cousins is especially bad, and that has not been done since Queen Vicky back in the 1850s

Show quote history

No the kings mother and father are 1st cousins they were married in 1947

Carla786 · 27/01/2026 18:29

Myyearmytime · 27/01/2026 18:26

No the kings mother and father are 1st cousins they were married in 1947

Show quote history

No, they were NOT first cousins.

They were second cousins on one side, and third cousins on another.

UltimateSloth · 27/01/2026 18:29

LeaderBee · 27/01/2026 18:21

I thought the risks from genetic inbreeding with a first cousin were incredibly low and the risk only becomes significant if that inbreeding then continues for a few more generations?

That's true. The problem is that there are people who have cousin marriages over several generations.

Carla786 · 27/01/2026 18:30

MaturingCheeseball · 27/01/2026 11:16

Thoroughly agree with pp observing it’s vote chasing by Labour, but that they are thoroughly f**d in those communities now. Certain MPs scraped in with a handful of votes. Next time predictions are around 30 Muslim Vote MPs.

If cousin marriage was naturally dying out, as it did in rural Britain (when the choice was limited!), that would perhaps be a reason to hold off legislation. But it is not. It seems increasingly entrenched to double down on cultural practices which are not beneficial to individuals or the state.

I think there are signs it is dying off in the younger generation..

Myyearmytime · 27/01/2026 18:30

UltimateSloth · 27/01/2026 18:25

No Queen Elizabeth didn't marry her first cousin. Prince Philip was her second cousin once removed. Generally you share the same amount of DNA with a second cousin as with a stranger. And Charles and Diana's common ancestors were more distant than that. Tudor era I believe.

Show quote history

They were third cousins AND second cousins once removed!

Which is a lot
https://www.countryfile.com/people/royals/prince-philip-queen-cousins

Carla786 · 27/01/2026 18:30

Playingvideogames · 27/01/2026 12:51

Saying something shouldn’t be made illegal and arguing it has ‘positives’ is arguing in favour of it. He’s arguing in favour of it because he’s a traditional Muslim and his desire to maintain religious norms is greater than his desire to do the right thing or assimilate to British society.

Show quote history

I didn't read his statement as being in favour of it.

beigeybeige · 27/01/2026 18:31

ComtesseDeSpair · 26/01/2026 19:52

In the U.K. we both didn’t have or want to think about it much until recently: culturally, cousin marriage hasn’t been generally practiced; and ultimately those who did practice it more (nobility) would historically have been among those with the greatest weight against rejecting any legislation around it.

I think it’s also quite a complicated thing for any modern government to legislate against explicitly on the grounds of it resulting in disabilities and health problems. Saying “it isn’t right to marry and have children knowing there will be a significant chance of them being born disabled” opens the door to there also being an insinuation, or an accusation that it is also being suggested that perhaps other people should be prevented from marrying and having children - such as people with conditions with a known genetic cause or heritability.

Edited

I agree with this. It feels racist to focus on cousin marriage when other possible causes of genetic problems like babies having older parents or parents passing on existing health problems can be very impactful and that will never be legislated against.
Because where does it end with the government having a view on who can have babies, once they start having a legal view like that?

Foggytree · 27/01/2026 18:31

Carla786 · 27/01/2026 18:20

Come on - first cousins is especially bad, and that has not been done since Queen Vicky back in the 1850s

Show quote history

Yes and many of Queen Vickys kids had haemophilia as a result of the inbreeding.

Carla786 · 27/01/2026 18:33

KitWyn · 27/01/2026 12:48

But he's wrong, stupidly and cruelly wrong.

We've tried education and offering genetic testing with these communities and it all failed. They don't work, the communities won't change. They think the disability is God's will, or tell themselves that the NHS is lying to cover up its own mistakes.

So thousands of children with terrible disabilities are still being born every year in the UK, because their parents are genetically as similar as a brother and sister.

It's incestuous. It causes great suffering for the disabled child, the child's parents, and for any healthy siblings seeing their family suffer horribly. It places huge financial burdens on the NHS and council services. So it has large negative impacts for everyone in the UK. We don't have the money for this.

We can and should urgently ban cousin marriages, and at the same time require all religious marriages to be legal ones. The communities where cousin marriages are common are also the ones where having children outside of marriage is rare and strongly disapproved of. It would be very effective.

It just needs political courage and an iron will. I very much hope Starmer finds and inserts a backbone and gets on with it. It could be the one action he is most proud of from his premiership. Imagine - thousands of children born free of terrible disabilities because of your leadership.

Edited

Show quote history

I agree mainly.

But 'We've tried education and offering genetic testing with these communities and it all failed. They don't work, the communities won't change.'

it seems it is getting less common in younger generations - has the education and testing offers really had no effect?

Carla786 · 27/01/2026 18:34

Foggytree · 27/01/2026 18:31

Yes and many of Queen Vickys kids had haemophilia as a result of the inbreeding.

Show quote history

Exactly...poor Tsarevich Alexei would probably not have lived long even if he hadn't been murdered by Bolsheviks..

MaturingCheeseball · 27/01/2026 18:34

Honestly, just because cousin marriage was practised amongst the aristocracy and royal houses of Europe in the past, and the rural poor of Britain (and Europe) (before decent transport) doesn’t make it ok!

It is just indefensible, and it will just get worse. As a pp said, it’s a financial transaction - paying to get to the UK - and caught in the crosshairs are the resultant dcs. I saw in a colour supplement about parents doing the “god’s will” thing about their disabled dc, plus some women/men being married to clearly very mentally disabled relatives, because that was the arrangement.

UltimateSloth · 27/01/2026 18:35

Don't most of the traveller community have Roman Catholic weddings? And they don't tend to have children out of wedlock? In that case maybe the priests should be reporting to the Papal office for dispensations (which won't be granted if there has been a cousin marriages in the couples ancestry).

Carla786 · 27/01/2026 18:35

beigeybeige · 27/01/2026 18:31

I agree with this. It feels racist to focus on cousin marriage when other possible causes of genetic problems like babies having older parents or parents passing on existing health problems can be very impactful and that will never be legislated against.
Because where does it end with the government having a view on who can have babies, once they start having a legal view like that?

Show quote history

For me, it's more that I worry it then implies there should be more legal initiatives to stop disabilities being passed on. That would be wrong.