To be disturbed by wilfull ignorance around genetic inbreeding?

[M9009]

I've come from a country were cousin marriage and indeed marriage to any close relative if illegal.
I've recently started working in a dialysis unit and I'm so disturbed by how many parents are young children born of first cousin marriage. Usually from South Asian backgrounds.
Today I was speaking to one parents who has 9 children, all in need of kidney transplants. The eldest 2 have already had theirs. Parents are first degree cousins and each have various medical problems of their own.
Why, as a society, do we allow these marriages? It seems so cruel to the children who are born with medical and genetic problems.
Maybe I'm easily shocked, I don't know.

Good idea...

If they're marrying a cousin who is a Pakistani citizen to bring them to the UK, the marriage in Pakistan would be ruled invalid under UK law and not count for immigration purposes. The new 'spouse' would be ineligible to come to the UK even if the income threshold were met.

If it is two British cousins then the marriage in Pakistan would be an act specifically taken to evade a legal ban on such a union in the UK. The law would need to include a provision outlawing this, and including a suitable punishment for the couple and/or those British citizens arranging the ceremony.

If the couple manage to conceal their illegal marriage, and then have a disabled child, this will in itself alert the authorities, first medical (NHS) and then the Police. Genetic testing as part of the baby's treatment will show that his/her parents are very close genetic relatives.

Cousin marriages DO cause major health problems in Pakistan.

See: https://amp-dw-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.dw.com/en/pakistan-cousin-marriages-create-high-risk-of-genetic-disorders/a-60687452?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_ct=1769538284186&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17695382661853&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dw.com%2Fen%2Fpakistan-cousin-marriages-create-high-risk-of-genetic-disorders%2Fa-60687452

"Scientists say inbreeding is causing an unusually high number of genetic mutations to spread in Pakistan, leading to disabilities in children of consanguineous marriages. Still, this social custom persists."

"According to a 2017 report on genetic mutations in Pakistan, the "heterogenous composition" of Pakistan's population, including high levels of "consanguinity" has led to a prevalence of genetic disorders."

Thank you! There's no need to be overly doomerist about the situation. It is still serious though...

The haemophilia was nothing to do with inbreeding. It is an autosomal dominant condition and her children had a 50% of inheriting the condition or being a carrier.

neither did I. I read it as explaining why the people who did it viewed it as having advantages, not that he agreed with them.

That's awful re ethnicities. Especially as Muhammad explicitly said , 'Your Lord is one, and your father (Adam) is one. There is no superiority of an Arab over a non- Arab, nor of a non-Arab over an Arab, nor of a white over a black, nor a black over a white except by piety.'

Perhaps but they also have a lot of shared ancestry too.

Queen Victoria spontaneously became a carrier of haemophilia known as the "royal disease" as a result of the pervasiveness of consanguineous marriages among Royal families throughout history and passed it on to her descendants, who in turn passed it on to other monarchies across Europe.

Her youngest son, Prince Leopold, died at the young age of 30 from a cerebral hemorrhage after a fall.

Do you understand how to Google what first cousin and second cousin once removed mean?

Yes

how would they survive anywhere but UK

what happens in Pakistan with these disabled dc

plus when people are brought in from abroad to marry someone here do they actually make any contribution to the treasury and pay their way

@suburburban
The UK isn’t the only country that cares for disabled children!!!!
And you can’t be remotely aware of what immigration rules are if you ask about contributing to the Treasury!
Applications for leave to enter or leave to remain or any other form of application to live in the UK costs money to the applicant…
A spouse visa application, to be successful, entails the partner based in the UK to have more financial income than many UK born people will have.
I worked for the Home Office (immigration) in various roles for 12 years.
Anything else you hear (unless you are referring to asylum seekers which is different for what one would hope are obvious reasons) is not accurate.
Even the USA has care for disabled children and adults with varying degrees (probably more effective and efficient medically speaking than the UK) that doesn’t follow the usual payment system.

i am Irish and having not lived there for over 20 years - if I lived there with my disabled daughter (I am not cousin-married in case you wonder) welfare benefits would greatly exceed UK benefits.

And sometimes disabled babies are born because de novo gene anomalies occur…

Are we sure education is the issue? What do these parents and "elders" think is the cause of so many of their community's children having such severe disabilities, do they honestly think this is normal and that ALL communities have the same proportionate level of children born this way and that we all require SEND services or that we all take our kids to constant hospital appointments? They know. They just don't care. We need to understand why they don't care. Restricting NHS funding would soon change behaviours.

And please can we stop referring to South Asian - while I acknowledge that some communities in India have first cousin marriages, in the UK this is prevalent in the Pakistani community. See also :Grooming Gangs

For every cousin marriage posters are defending on this thread because it has resulted in “healthy children” there are thousands of examples where the children are not so lucky. It is the biggest preventable cause of disabilities that there is in this country and costs society a great deal in resources. Time it was banned. A ban would be a clear signal that we no longer thought it a good idea.

I have only got to page 14 so sorry if this point has already been made.
I know a woman who has a child with her first cousin, or possibly her half brother people aren't sure, the child is disabled.
They are white British.
No one here is getting married so banning cousin marriage would have made no difference at all.

No she didn’t. Prince Philip was QE’s 2nd cousin once removed.

Diana & Charles were very distantly related. 16th cousins or something.

Stop peddling this nonsense.

Just because some people might still do something doesn’t mean you shouldn’t make it illegal. Making it illegal sends a clear message that society considers this a harmful and damaging practice ( eg drink driving)

Should be banned, take pressure off the NHS.

Repeated first cousin marriage is very common in the Pakistani Muslim communities & Traveller communities. It is rare everywhere else. Children are very rarely born out of wedlock in both of these communities. It is very frowned upon, and family/community status is hugely important.

So in these communities if you can't marry your cousin you definitely won't be having babies with him. You'll marry someone else instead who isn't a close genetic relative.

A legislative approach will be very, very effective . So long as we both legally ban 1st/2nd cousin marriage AND require all religious marriages (here or abroad) to include a civil/legal union. No loopholes left.

We can do this as part of the planned Wedding Law Reform Bill due later this year. Perfect timing!

Most social groups have a lot of shared ancestry- the real dangers arise when the relationships are close eg siblings or first cousins. Neither of which are applicable to the modern royal family. First cousin marriages should be against the law for the same reason sibling ones are. The definition of incest just needs widening slightly.

Specifically, the Pakistani conservative rural, esp Mirpuri, community who migrated to UK. Pakistan itself has many people, esp in urban areas, who are much more liberal.

Would same apply to Traveller community re elders being aware and the potential effects of restricting NHS funding? Maybe, hopefully?

Gosh, isn’t it great? You could strike against several ethnic minorities under the guise of ‘progress’, not just one!

Its very common for Ashkenazi Jews to do genetic testing before marriage, since they are so close related genetically. Most common diseases are Tay Sachs and Cystic Fibrosis but nowadays the panel of conditions is huge that re tested for.

Couples who test positive for the same condition can choose not to marry, or to do PGD IVF.

Thats interesting about non verbal autism, is it proven to be connected to cousin marriage?

It’s not to do with education the issues have long been known

it’s to do with people not wanting to be told that their cultural traditions are wrong and would rather out their faith in their culture and god than in what a person from a different culture and religion is telling them

we should stop making excuses for people choosing to make bad choices for their children

https://www.jnetics.org/getting-tested/

More info about genetic testing in the Jewish community.

what do you mean “under the guise of progress”?
Don’t you think that rules against consanguinity represent progress ?
Would you also defend FGM ?