'Taxes are the price we pay for a civilised society'

[Bargepole45]

Having just paid an enormous tax bill, I frankly am fed up with hearing this. There are lots of civilised countries that have a far lower tax burden than the UK. It's just a form of blackmail designed to make contributors believe that there is no other way other than to pay sky high taxes to subsidise people's crap life choices.

Have too many kids and can't afford them? No problem, the state steps in. Have a terrible lifestyle and don't look after your health at all? No problem, the NHS will treat you. Spent all your money with wild abandon and have nothing left to pay for your care when you get old? Don't fret, the state will fund the same care home as someone that has saved all their life.

Don't people understand that these 'safety nets' just facilitate reckless behaviour? We can have a civilised society where people aren't cushioned from all of their bad decision making. I say this as someone from a background where I didn't have much money and I am so fed up with people pretending that poor people don't know that an apple is healthier than a chocolate bar or that it's a good idea to actually attend school. It's insulting and disempowering to keep making excuses for people that simply aren't incentivised to make different, better choices.

Where is all this talent heading to?

Wow. As long as Jack’s alright..

You are a serious accident or redundancy away from needing that “safety net”. Yes, there are some people that take the piss, but does this mean everyone else should suffer?

it’s like saying that because some people phone 999 spuriously, we are going to scrap the entire system?

What IS wrong with this country is a lack of empathy and compassion.

Honestly ive thought about this alot and im a high rate tax payer but i do think when its not your burden then you feel like its reckless and most probably ive felt like that at times myself.

However when it came to for example my child needing immediate intervention the secondary school and cahms stepped in immediatly whilst i was still reeling from the shock of it all.

When my mother in law requied life saving surgery the NHS stepped up and saved her.

And i dont believe the majorty of people want to rely on the state as they become elderly, its just that due to the cost of living sometimes you cant do it all, its between your pension pot or your weekly shop, its between paying for your boiler/car to be repaired or your pension pot.

So equally people are in crisis just as much as the governement is in crisis.

I do however feel that the health crisis is due to mismanaged funds and lack of any type of good strong social care/mental health care and a mentality of "it can be someone elses/this departments probem"

I am probably one of the few thats really happy to pay tax and and belive me i pay alot but i do feel like its notthe peoples fault, its the governements mismanagement.

@Bargepole45 and @Weetabixw
You make incorrect presumptions and it is in fact, you that is wrong. It's not just about tax though is it - it's neoliberalism that started with Thatcher and Reagan. Post WW2, governments tried to create a better world, a properly funded NHS, social housing, apprenticeships, pensions etc. The Tories objected from the start - voting against the NHS. Since 1979, Thatcher and her ilk (where did all the austerity money go?) have sold everything off - other countries own our utilities and use the profits there, Norway used the North Sea oil to create a Sovereign fund for the benefit of their residents - our governments flogged them off. We are never going to get the Covid contract money back either. Wealth was supposed to 'trickle down' but instead it trickles to offshore tax havens or to an already wealthy royal family who are vague about the tax they pay (or not). Now, everything is about money, exacerbated by the main stream media and social media that are all owned by billionaires who point at immigrants, the poor, pensioners, disabled in order to deflect blame from themselves. It is now time too to tax wealth not just earnings.

the system was devised with the idea that there would always be enough people in the working population to easily fund the pensions of a relatively small number of retired people that would die relatively quickly and inexpensively.

In a nutshell. As opposed to the likes of my parents. Twenty years into state backed DB pension schemes with generous inflation uplifts. Starting to consume a bit more healthcare now, but both likely to live another 10-15 years drawing huge pensions.

For much of their careers they made tiny contributions and their employers often took "contribution holidays" thinking the investments would grow more than expected.

It's great that you've never had to rely on these safety nets. You're very lucky. Anyone can have a life changing illness, or a marriage breakdown. You clearly don't understand how it feels to live in grinding poverty and have no way out. Visit any US city and see how many homeless people there are. That's what happens when you take away that safety net.

That's such a straw man argument.

The point is, it's extremely difficult to go from self-funding and never claiming benefits. Because the system will say you have savings to use up, and you used to work without claiming anything so why are you now?

And it is hard from that.

But if you've always claimed in one way or another it really isn't hard at all. And it's how you've always lived- off the state in one way or another.

You're already in the system.

You're already established as a benefits claimant from a benefit claimants family.

Apparently the majority of those bankrupt in the US is due to the inability to pay crippling medical bills.

Does this apply to younger generations who claim a myriad of benefits? Why haven't they saved for their rainy day?

A lot of that will be due to housing costs though

They’re going to retire in grinding poverty.

The removal of plenty of council houses was a disaster. There will always be people who are unable to pay a mortgage or high private rental fees.
But still housing developers get planning permission for four bed executive houses and then say building council houses is not viable. Those in charge ( supposedly) should sort this out. It will help people enormously. And in the long term save a fortune in payments to private landlords.

Exactly, less likely to have social housing or mortgage paid off & they will be waiting some years for that state pension.

This discrepancy is of course a problem, but lowering taxes will not solve it.

I have retired and draw my pension. There is no way I could live on this. I have a small additional occupational pension plus a small NHS widow's pension plus I downsized and released some capital from my home.

I could not survive otherwise - it would be quite impossible.

So, whilst the discrepancy between expected state pension costs and the reality of longer lives is a problem, I would not like anyone to think that living on a state pension is easy. It is not - hence the additional top-up benefits that many need to keep warm and fed.

There are of course pensioners who are swanning about going on cruises for half the year but do not forget that their state pension is taxed.

I couldn't resist, I asked co-pilot!
So interestingly, the UK has a liberal welfare model.
Benefits being we have low taxation
Trade off being - we actually have a very thin safety net, high amount of means testing, and higher social inequality

So maybe... We are all right... Maybe..the least able are being taxed proportionately too much, the most able too little, and we all focus on poor families getting benefits rather than, well, I don't need to say do I, surely it's obvious at this stage!!

This is a depressing thread - some PPs (and probably OP) would prefer a return to workhouses.

My Nan once told me that she witnessed her grandfather on the parish council deciding which people were ‘worthy’ of getting money. She said it was heartbreaking watching people having to beg for enough money to feed their children. It turned her right off the type of politics some people would revel in.

it’s not the level of taxation that is the issue in the UK, it’s how it’s spread between the earners. The tax on higher earners is disproportionately high. The high on lower earners is disproportionately low.

From my London graduate intake alone: Singapore, Australia, Hong Kong, US, Canada, Dubai, Qatar.

GDP per capita is higher. This is the relevant point. That makes a country richer and provides a higher standard of living. Not higher wages in themselves which can simply drive inflation.

If you don't expect to be earning that much in the next tax year then you say so and ask for payments on account to be reduced...I stopped work to deal with some family estates but I have some income from property so I have just said that's my only income for this tax year and reduced payment on account by about 80%.

Well off they go then to Dubaï (other hellholes are available)

Medics I know are all off to Australia and New Zealand, but that’s an issue with getting UK training posts too.

This is the most factual and sensible answer on this post. People should know exactly what has happened to this country before bleating on about a minority who abuse the system.
It is the rich getting richer. The poor get poorer. Nobody is angry about the super rich creaming off the top?! Misplaced anger fuelled by the right wing press and politicians.
Educate yourselves please.

They say they can't.

That's all that's required.

There's no actual assessment. And couldn't be because it isn't actually based on physical functioning that can be assessed, it's based on perception and feelings.

There are questions which say 'is this the help you need even if you are not getting the help' which is odd when when talking about literal function.

Do you think it's a coincidence that the most common disorders 39% of PIP claims are psychiatric disorders where there is literally no way to prove the disorder, nor the impact that it has?

Do you not think that is odd for a disability benefit which is based on functional impairment?

People do not go to Dubai for good. They go for a few years to save enough to then be able to withstand a 60 per cent tax rate and buy a house or save into a pension!