To feel weird about Brownies because there’s a boy there?

[ElizaDolittle124]

Was invited to Brownies tonight to see my daughter do her ‘promise’. Was a bit awkward as it turns out there’s a boy in the group. Another parent turned up with a younger sibling who immediately said loudly ‘mummy why is there a boy here?’ The mum was v flustered trying to explain he wanted to join in and the child just said ‘but brownies is for girls’ until she told him to be quiet.

I just feel a bit weird that I didn’t know. The whole reason we joined brownies was for the girls only environment, which my daughter was really excited about. Feel like I should have just put her in the scouts instead now (which would have been more convenient). But my friend is one of the brownie leaders and she encouraged me by promoting the idea of a girl’s only space.

There’s a brownie camp sleepover thing next month where they sleep in dormitories. My daughter can’t go anyway as we have other plans that weekend, but it’s got me wondering how they’re going to arrange that? Surely they can’t have the boy sleeping separately in a room on his own, but equally he can’t go with the girls?

This is exactly why Brownies and Guides are really going to struggle to keep going. It’s difficult getting volunteers already and the boy, trans witch hunt is out dated, not popular with younger generations and frankly just leads to unpleasant, unkind , stereotypical pushing,intolerant behaviour. Not an environment many parents want for their children.

Omg where have you been the last 10 years? Do you now understand what so called 'terfs' have been making a fuss about for so many years and why it is so important to preserve female only spaces? When you find out that Brownies can also be run by a male leader pretending to be a woman and that boys are being allowed to sleep in the same tents as girls on camping trips, then perhaps you will really understand what the trans debate has been all about.

🙄

I went to Brownies with a child I would have sworn up and down was a boy. Looking back this seems unlikely as it was the early 00s and “his” name was Lucy. Lucy had short hair and was a tomboy. Children are children and not all girls will gender conform.

Of course you need to raise it. They are clearly breaking the law and breaking the girl guide movement rules (if they apply). You can raise it by email with Head Office if you’re not comfortable raising with the local group. Repost asking for help composing the email (on the sex and gender board).

Why an eye roll about blatant safeguarding failures

No Brownies struggles because it has much bigger issues than whether we should accept boys.

By the way we don't have boys in our unit and would never take any. That's our choice as leaders. Boys can join cubs if they want to join something.

It’s already been explained how easy it is to safeguard camps by people who do it.

The eye roll is for the blatant hysteria whipping witch hunt rhetoric.

Echoing others, it might a girl, if you are unsure, you can ask your friend. My main concern wouldn’t be that my daughter was at brownies with a boy (although it would be annoying) I would be more concerned that she would be encouraged to speak and behave in a way that is contrary to the evidence of her own eyes. You spend so long at this age getting children to be honest and tell the truth, even if it is unpleasant, or it costs them something. Being in a group where the adults all fabricate something and the children are encouraged to tell a pack of lies would really disappoint me. It would undermine all the effort I put into emphasising honesty and truthfulness.

He may be a volunteer’s child as others have said, I would enquire and ask this first. It might be that he helps out and wears the uniform like the adults tend to too.

Surely if there’s a boy in the group they’re breaking the law to say they are for girls

I’d be challenging them not allowing them to break the law

if they’re bending the rules like this what other safety measures are they failing on? And what happens at camp?

Boy police?! I’m a mum of a daughter and a mum of a son. I love boys. But if I take my daughter to a girls only organisation it’s girls only. If brown owl has a childcare issue for her son then he sits somewhere on an iPad or something. He doesn’t stick on a uniform and join a girls only organisation. It’s girls only.

Nobody would be questioning the gender of my daughter without a massive fight. How dare children and grown adults question gender based on how girls wear their hair.

When you've been a girl who wasn't 'pretty' whose hair was thick and unruly so her mother pushed her into having it cut off, you'll know it's shit enough being mistaken for a boy.

I cried myself to sleep over my looks as it was. I dread to think how fucking mortifying it would have been to go through that with parents muttering about my right to be in a girls only space.

How bloody awful it must be not to be pretty these days. No wonder all the girls in the primary schools I work in have long hair, now.

Are you sure the child was definitely a boy? Very hard to tell at that age, short hair and clothing could make a a7/8 yo female look male. Perhaps the child you thought was a boy is a natal female who is wanting to be treated as a boy and therefore appears male, but is still very much considered female under the new sex guidance and therefore okay to be at Brownies in the same way Transmen can be in female spaces.

The new guidance states that any biological boys identifying as girls who joined under the previous trans guidance, can stay for now until further guidance is released. The policy literally only changed a few weeks ago and there is a call for leaders about it next week so whether it changes again, im not sure. But any for new members, the policy is based on biological sex. I think someone has linked to it further up the thread.

It isn’t your choice as leaders. It’s compliance with the law and the charitable purposes of the organisation. A different leader group cannot make a different decision.

I I’m a brownie and guide leader (we are all volunteers) I also have a little boy and sometimes he has to come with me other wise I just wouldn’t be able to come and then we wouldn’t have enough leaders to hold the sessions and then there’s no brownies or guides. So I drag the poor boy along because I want to help and support my community. Why don’t you just ask?

I'd check this out quietly before saying anything as it could be the son of one of the leaders (who are volunteers) or even a girl who looks boyish.

Bollocks. Back in the 80s and 90s I attended brownies and guides with girls from a whole spectrum of physical presentations. Some what people might describe as “tom boys”, some very feminine and the majority somewhere in between. No stereotyping. And girls only.

A couple of boys joining in games wouldn't have particularly bothered me, aa i imagine everyone was open and transparent about it

It's v different now, when a bio male may be identifying as female and sharing dorms with girls. Amd parents vilified for querying it

Not sure how that relates to my post whatsoever- did you quote the wrong post? I have no problem whatsoever with gender non conforming girls, I am one myself. My problem is with biological males in female only spaces.

There was’t a witch hunt mentality back then and people didn’t have two working parents so much.All our groups have been struggling re staffing and numbers for some time.

There is a difference between a boy occasionally coming along as the son of a volunteer, and a boy turning up in Brownie uniform and being a pack member.

The first is open and honest to the other girls and their parents, the second is not. The second also goes against the recent girl guides statement.

If Guiding wants to be mixed sex it can be, open and honestly. What it cannot do is be mixed sex secretly and only let in special boys who are gender confused.

Just to clear this up, I grew up in the 70s. Many girls at my schools (both secondary and infants/juniors) had short hair.

Everyone managed to work out who the boys and girls were.

In recent years some trans activists claim to have some sort of ‘sex blindness’, where they can’t even tell fully grown men from women and seem to mistake tall women with short hair for men. This is a very modern phenomenon but thankfully seems confined to that specific group and does not affect the general population.