To be shocked by this government dietary advice for babies and children?

[fourfoxsakes]

from the government in Northern Ireland that is published online? Surely we don’t do these things any more such as mixing baby rice with milk and advising people to feed their very young children rice crispies and cornflakes for breakfast and advising people to give juice with meals! Surely this is bad advice, I am honestly surprised that the government have been allowed to publish this crap. I have no doubt people still do these things which is an individual parenting choice but surely the government shouldn’t be advocating for this?

re the fruit juice, I always encouraged this because I knew it counted as one of the five a day and it’s an easy way to get one in.

i still have a fruit juice with breakfast for exactly these reasons.

so while from a teeth point of view it might not be ideal it does help with the five a day, and fruit juice comes in cartons which keep easily.

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/5-a-day/5-a-day-what-counts/

I was one of those people when I first left home. But I managed to eat fairly healthily, even when living in a homeless hostel. Basic foods like cereal (!), fruit, baked potatoes (done in microwave), boiled veg. Made sure I got my 5 a day.

I think the biggest issue is education. I live in a relatively poor area now and see people buying crap unhealthy foods, but many of them do actually have more money than I did when on the bones of my arse. They just don't seem to know how to manage it.

It's both. They combine.

On a population level, porridge is more of a financial risk than rice krispies. This is because even where both are available in the same shops and so the costs of getting them are identical, culture means parents are more likely to know that rice krispies will be eaten by someone in the house. The porridge/other unfamiliar item is a greater risk.

If we were starting from an entirely blank slate then we could look only at what each item sells for. But we're not, because of culture. Uncertainty has a financial cost too.

Agree entirely. And the lack of NHS dentists and the ceasing of dental checks at school are the reasons for poor dental hygeine and children not seeing a dentist. I cherish like saffron my access to a NHS dental surgery because round here they are rarer than hens' teeth. Private dentists often won't offer the free dentistry DC are entitled to (doesn't pay enough). Parents are often unaware they are entitled to free dental care for their DC until 18.
That said, I don't see many children locally with poor teeth - but this is an afluent working class/lower middle class area.

This thread is peak MN at its best (worst?). Chia seeds, home made baked beans, home made bread, sour dough etc. it's all so far removed from the reality of many people's lives. So much drama over Rice Krispies once a week, and diluted fruit juice (which might be the only vitamin C a child sees all week).

I worked in a community dental clinic that did child teeth extractions under GA. Some of those poor children were so deprived; hair actually moving with nits, unkempt, dirty, they smelt and the state of their teeth was often desperate. Some caries were caused by fizzy drinks and squash, others by being fed formula/soft drinks from a bottle at night. Most people have probably never heard of bottle caries, let alone seen children with them.

These are the families this advice is aimed at. These children getting any sort of breakfast is a win. One that is fortified with vitamins and minerals, gold medal worthy.

What I don't understand about this is that you describe children arriving at school hungry and later talk about foods that don't "appeal" to kids.

We all know what foods "appeal" to kids. They love salt, fat and sugar. Of course they do.

And I'm starting to get the impression that this is what drives the dietary advice and a lot of the attitudes from pp. That somehow what kids will agree to eat without a tantrum is what they should be given.

That's terrible!

A hungry, healthy kid will eat what's in front of them. Lead with that. Give them something healthy. Good for their waistlines, their teeth and probably their brains too.

@QuinqueremeofNiveneh
I don't see how you can point your finger at the food industry but not see how the NHS is doing their work for them with this guidance?

Oh, come off it. If every currently badly-fed child in the UK was eating this menu instead, they would be a lot healthier.

You've contradicted yourself. You 'ate healthily' which means you understood what healthy eating was. So you were not in the position of ignorance you are saying you were. Bit of logic?
You are right about education, though.

You've clearly never met an Autistic child with ARFID or many other reasons why children may have a limited diet that has nothing to do with giving in to tantrums.

The neurodiverse MNers will be turning up for you. Eat if you are hungry? Surely not!
However, the advice given in this NI leaflet is good nutrition on a basic diet which any can afford and (importantly) cook, assuming cooking facilities.
It is true that some families have no cooking facilities or not complete ones. This means food has to be heated on a hob or in a microwave. It it's shared facilities good luck with putting on a stew that takes up a quarter of the hob all day!
NB the children are hungry because they have not been given breakfast - chaotic home life/parents on shifts - not because they haven't eaten what is in front of them.

I did specifically say "healthy".

Told you so, @QuinqueremeofNiveneh! The neurodiverse MNers never let you down.

You’re right that eating healthily isn’t automatically more expensive but you have to look at the whole picture, which for some reason you’re choosing not do.

Is porridge oats and water cheaper than cereal with milk? Of course, but you need a way to cook the porridge, and you need the time and the inclination. You also need to make it in a way that’s appealing to small children, many of whom won’t want to eat it plain with water.

Whereas a bowl of cereal with milk requires nothing more than a bowl and a spoon. It takes 5 seconds to put together. It tastes the same every time. It’s fortified with iron and other vitamins. The added milk gives you calcium which is vital for small children.

This. The advice is pants and convenience foods should be discouraged as much as possible at that age. Protein for breakfast: think Greek youghurt or scrambled eggs instead of sugary cereal. 150ml juice max at any age. Water is much better. Eat an apple for fibre if you like the taste.

Which is an interesting condition to add in itself, since the leaflet we're discussing doesn't state that it only applies to, say, NT kids.

It's also pretty common human behaviour not to eat things we find objectionable and/or aren't confident in, even when the alternative is hunger. The post half an hour ago about the peanut foods in Bangladesh is a good example of that. For small children especially, there are obvious reasons why they've evolved to be unadventurous and trust what the adults around them are eating.

Are you suggesting that children with autism aren’t healthy?

They really really won’t.

i used to buy carrots, like I said. Big bag of them, pretty cheap and I used to eat one at break time for my snack.

lots of hungry kids turned them down. They’d rather be hungry than eat a carrot.

it really isn’t the case that a hungry child will eat anything. They have very strong ideas about what they will and won’t eat.

I used to do a lesson most years where I bought various types of fruit and as a class we did a taste test and rated each fruit on various ways - Taste nice, look nice, say how much you’d pay for it in Tesco sort of thing. Nearly all kids would try nearly all of the types of fruit but most didn’t like them.

(we then did a load of averages and wrote a report recommending which one of the fruits should be added to the school canteen).

Greek yoghurt without anything added to it is not going to appeal to most children. Scrambled eggs also require time and a means to cook them!

Every day in that sample menu has a portion of dairy (two of which are yoghurt - not greek, because that's pretty much the most expensive yoghurt) and three of the five tea-time meals are eggs. They are recommending that people eat those foods. People are really overfocusing on the breakfast and overcatastrophising about one portion of rice crispies a week.

Please could I ask you to accept that with the shorthand of "healthy", I was specifically making allowance for children who have medical conditions that affect their ability to engage with activities of daily living, including eating.

I did say 'my country'. The advice isn't terrible but its not great either, and they really shouldn't be recommending juice, at most it should say 'juice is not recommended for most children, if needed for constipation then give at mealtimes', and they shouldn't be recommending daily puddings, there's no need for that.

“Would it not be better if they spent more money on wholesome things like oranges and wholemeal bread or if they even, like the writer of the letter to the New Statesman, saved on fuel and ate their carrots raw? Yes, it would, but the point is that no ordinary human being is ever going to do such a thing. The ordinary human being would sooner starve than live on brown bread and raw carrots. And the peculiar evil is this, that the less money you have, the less inclined you feel to spend it on wholesome food. A millionaire may enjoy breakfasting off orange juice and Ryvita biscuits; an unemployed man doesn't. Here the tendency of which I spoke at the end of the last chapter comes into play. When you are unemployed, which is to say when you are underfed, harassed, bored, and miserable, you don't want to eat dull wholesome food. You want something a little bit 'tasty'. There is always some cheaply pleasant thing to tempt you.”
George Orwell,
The Road To Wigan Pier, 1937

The diet suggested is fine for a young child. If you look accross the days & week there are protein, carbs, fats, calcium and vitamins. Cornflakes & rice krispires feature in a couple of meals. They are not the devils food. Served with milk and fruit (as suggested) they are fine on occasion. Porridge made with water is not necessarily better for a child than cornflakes and full fat milk. They are not dieting adults. Milk and fortified cereal provide the fats, calcium, protein, carbs and vitamins that children need. The porrige, stews and veggies people suggest also feature on the menu. It is about suggesting achievable, familiar and palatable options that provide a balanced diet.

I wonder why the manufacturer might make those claims? 🤔

Sorry, you think that the nutritional information provided on food is just invented? That it's a conspiracy? Rice crispies aren't promoted as high fibre, because they aren't, but yes, I do think the breakdown given on the label is true.