To think infant circumcision is wrong but also that a total ban on it will not work and is not the most effective way to tackle it?

[Carla786]

On the recent threads after the tragic death of the baby boy who died from circumcision performed by a non medical professional, there have been a lot of calls for a total ban on here.
Now, I think infant circumcision is very wrong. But in practice I do not think a ban will work.
Most cultural circumcisions are performed by medically trained people. Backstreet ones need to be cracked down on with the full force of the law, but they are not typical.
Second, circumcision is key in Islam. However, while most agree it’s either compulsory or strongly recommended, age requirements are not as stringent in mandating someone has to be a minor. I think there is some hope sensitive campaigning within the community could maybe make more families consider leaving it until their son is at least maybe an older adolescent with more ability to choose.
Judaism – circumcision is central to Orthodox, Ultra Orthodox Haredi ofc, and more liberal Masorti and Reform. It is extremely unlikely that any law or external pressure would stop these practices, because brit milah is a covenantal obligation tied to Jewish identity. Attempting a blanket ban would likely trigger defensiveness, fear, maybe underground circumcisions and probably emigration of at least some to Israel or elsewhere, rather than protect children.
Focusing on sterile procedures, trained practitioners, and medical supervision would be more likely to significantly reduce risk. Jews have experienced persecution for circumcision in the past (e.g., Hellenistic bans and European restrictions), so any attempt to criminalise it today can feel existential. This is only heightened by the terrible upsurge in anti Semitism recently.

I agree with sentiments behind calling for a ban - I just thing measures short of a ban are more likely to work.

“Only some Haredi do that now: that was a premodern rite done due to mistaken understanding of germ theory. Most Jewish groups stopped doing it in the 20th century when infection was better understood.
We need to ensure no Haredi do it now.“

So, ‘know better, do better’ applies to putting the cut bleeding penis the mouth of the circumcisor, but not to the level of pain we now know these babies suffer from the newer, more extreme type of circumcision….?

right

Many people would equate someone putting a child's penis in their mouth with sexual abuse.

@TheignT thrownback by who? I think we acknowledge those men and the sacrifice they made, no?

perhaps you mean something else, so I apologise if i ‘ve got this wrong but yes, I absolutely agree that soldiers were the victims of war too.

Yes - I mean it would be legitimate to argue that politicians did not order WW2 to rescue Jews under persecution(and ofc no one knew of the Holocaust when war was declared). But ignoring the role ordinary British people played, often with great suffering, in defeating the Nazis is a different matter.

The oral suction rite might well result in death via herpes- whereas circumcision itself should not, if performed safely. But I agree- even if pain relief is used (which Haredi do not do - this MUST change asap), the poor baby still has to wait for the wound to heal. 😢

From their perspective this rite is not 'new' and cannot be changed - this is why I think with the strictest groups the only way to change it would be a theological reinterpretation.

Otoh I am much more confident in mandating pain relief, banning oral suction (jail for this definitely) and mandating performance in medical environment. A ban would obviously be best but I'm thinking of what is most likely to help children.

Let's be clear. Britain's fight against Nazism was admirable. But it was never fought to save European Jews. That was marginal at best. It was fought aa it was seen to be in Britain's interest.

And when the Nazis took over the channel islands we saw what the British would have done to their Jews in case of Nazi occupation.

The law doesn’t jail people for holding dangerous beliefs — it restricts dangerous acts. If it did, we'd be jail some of the Haredi (some do not do it), Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists who encorage medical treatment refusal etc But we don't.

This dangerous practice should be banned and enforced as a safeguarding issue. Criminalising religion or imprisoning people for belief is neither lawful nor effective, and would make children less safe, not more.

Unluckily Israel's Chief Rabbinate has affirmed the practice. They have become increasingly Haredi dominated which does not help. Germany & NY do not ban it but encourage Haredi parents not to do it - they need to ban it!

Many Muslim & Jewish men do report a feeling of cultural/religious belonging from it but that's no excuse.. and there is surely much pressure to feel positive.

I saw a newborn almost die from this when I was a student. It was awful.

Doesn't matter your religion, it's time it is banned.

How many neonatal babies has that happened to in the UK?
How many babies where it was done as neonates by a qualified professional?
And their parents and communities would be the first port of call to speak up for them, the ones that care about them.

Indeed, if youre that worried about the tiny number of cases where it has happened worldwide then the best way to reduce it is to regulate rather than ban.
Right now anyone in the UK can legally circumcise which is a bit nuts.

Yes but Talmud isnt scriptures. Talmud is like the old fashioned version of reddit.
I know the pp is just an ignorant bigot with no idea of the distinction between the talmud and the scriptures and has no knowledge of Jewish doctrine and theology

No and neither do Jews and Muslims, do they.

Why on earth are you converting to masorti Judaism if youre opposed to circumcision. They still require it in accordance with halacha. It's a non negotiable.

Yes. As I've said, I disagree with it. But factually, it is normally safe if done by a doctor, and bans will be more likely to lead to unregulated procedures and deaths...

In a hospital? That's horrible...was there a complication? I understand if you'd rather not say..

My conversion choices are my own and not something I’m asking to discuss on this thread.

I’m capable of holding a nuanced position: being drawn to Judaism while also being critical of a specific practice — including ones that communities themselves debate.

I don’t have children yet, I’m a woman, and this is not a hypothetical I need to resolve right now.

Incidentally, Julie Bindel's wife Harriet Wistrich has a brother who moved to Israel and became a Breslov Haredi (one of the strictest). The article on going to his daughter's wedding is quite interesting. This is again from 2008.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/aug/09/arranged.marriages.julie.bindel

You kind of are though as circumcision is one of the most basic precepts of most streams of Judaism, including masorti. In fact, you've come on to Mumsnet to announce your opposition to one of the key requirements of the religion that you're converting to! What will you do when you are invited to a brit milah celebration at your new synagogue? Why not choose a religion that you actually believe in?!

I will reply more fully in a minute. For now I will say that I will reply to this, but then I do not wish to continue discussing my personal religious beliefs on a thread about something different. If you wish to discuss my personal religious beliefs with me further, please DM me.

@Carla786 Do whatever you want to do but I can assure you that you will likely find it very difficult to convert through Orthodox or Conservative streams if you want to pick and choose the mitzvot according to your ideology, especially one that's seen as a fundamental aspect of Jewish identity and law. You probably know "Na'aseh v'nishmah" as a basic when it comes to the commandments. No community will appreciate a convert willingly agreeing to take on all the extra mitzvot Jews are obliged to do (including circumcision) and then deciding to educate the community about why they shouldn't do it!! I strongly suspect if you tell an orthodox or masorti rabbi you oppose male circumcision you will be told that you should not convert as you are not actually willing to ahere to all the mitzvot. Judaism is very much a communal religion and you would be expected to be part of the community which includes celebrating circumcision. .

The word "nuance" has no place in this debate.
Mutilating babies is fundamentally wrong. Babies have a right to society's protection.

It was a nice gesture. Certainly more than Ireland ever did. But why were the parents not allowd to come with their children? They weren't orphans. I mean, wouldn't that protect babies the most? ALlowing them to grow up with their own parents. Or does that not count?

I mean come on, let's not whitewash the British tradition of antisemitism because a few thousand kids (who were they thought wouldn't be TOO Jewish, unlike their parents) were allowed in.

Honestly, the naivete and ignroance on this thread is stunning. The British have never cared about Jeiwsh (or Muslim or African) babies - only now when it is something that they can beat them and persecue them with faux outrage. Ohh, let's take all their mutilated kids into care.And all coming from those not actually affected by it, not the so called victims (the babies do grow up).

Luckily, I feel that it is only a very opinionated minority that even comments on this.and there is actually no chance of a ban in the UK with such a large Muslim minority and as a previous poster also said, another apparently high status and influential group who have the power to stop any legislation they don't like (note the protocols of elders of zion undertones)

How many are acceptable? For me one is too many but perhaps you have a figure you find acceptable.

"Their mutilated babies". How othering. We are talking about British babies, our babies.