To think infant circumcision is wrong but also that a total ban on it will not work and is not the most effective way to tackle it?

[Carla786]

On the recent threads after the tragic death of the baby boy who died from circumcision performed by a non medical professional, there have been a lot of calls for a total ban on here.
Now, I think infant circumcision is very wrong. But in practice I do not think a ban will work.
Most cultural circumcisions are performed by medically trained people. Backstreet ones need to be cracked down on with the full force of the law, but they are not typical.
Second, circumcision is key in Islam. However, while most agree it’s either compulsory or strongly recommended, age requirements are not as stringent in mandating someone has to be a minor. I think there is some hope sensitive campaigning within the community could maybe make more families consider leaving it until their son is at least maybe an older adolescent with more ability to choose.
Judaism – circumcision is central to Orthodox, Ultra Orthodox Haredi ofc, and more liberal Masorti and Reform. It is extremely unlikely that any law or external pressure would stop these practices, because brit milah is a covenantal obligation tied to Jewish identity. Attempting a blanket ban would likely trigger defensiveness, fear, maybe underground circumcisions and probably emigration of at least some to Israel or elsewhere, rather than protect children.
Focusing on sterile procedures, trained practitioners, and medical supervision would be more likely to significantly reduce risk. Jews have experienced persecution for circumcision in the past (e.g., Hellenistic bans and European restrictions), so any attempt to criminalise it today can feel existential. This is only heightened by the terrible upsurge in anti Semitism recently.

I agree with sentiments behind calling for a ban - I just thing measures short of a ban are more likely to work.

Nope.

Slicing bits off a newborn baby for anything other than medical reasons really should be banned.

…a ban, with criminal records and imprisonment for anyone found to be carrying it out.

If you chopped any other bit off a baby, you would be prosecuted, not sure why we don’t enforce the same rules for Foreskin.

If your God insists that you mutilate babies, you might want to look for a new religion.

Realistically, many Jews may probably leave the UK for Israel or maybe US if we do that. Or maybe circumcise on holiday in another country. Would we arrest them for doing that on holiday?

I can't see this ending well for Jews, Muslims, or the baby boys who will probably end up being circumcised anyway

Imo it's much better to try and work with the communities to ensure proper medical insight & pain relief.

Circumcision is a very important part of religious Jews and Muslim’s faith. You may totally disagree with it. It’s not my faith. But to pretend that banning it isn’t a huge, huge thing is naive. We could and should restrict it to medical settings. My Muslim friends had their baby circumcised in a private hospital to ensure better health and safety. But banning completely seems so drastic to me. For the record none of my kids are circumcised so no vested interest in defending it.

A lot of Jews & Muslims will end up in prison then...is that really the best outcome?

I predict if prison sentences would enforced there would be a mass exodus, and as I've said, the boys would still end up circumcised, maybe in more unsafe conditions.

Thank you! People on MN do not seem to understand how important this is. I strongly disagree with it but I am also a realist.

..if people want to leave the country, so they can mutilate thier children, they are more than welcome.

If they take thier children abroad to get it done “on holiday” we should do the same as we do with FGM, and make that an offence also.

Either you live in the UK where we don’t slice bits off babies, or you live somewhere else.

It is unfortunate the Jewish scriptures are very strict on this...

Unluckily, the Jewish scriptures explicitly say it must be done as an 8-day-old baby. This will be hard to get around, at least for branches who adhere very strictly to the text.

'And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.

— Genesis 17:10–14[25]
Leviticus 12:3 says: "And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

However, people won't just be able to change that. Gradual reform strictly mandating medical oversight is much more hopeful.

For myself, I don't want to bring in something that will make the strictest Jewish communities (Haredi) hunker down even more, and make other Jews most likely feel very unwelcome at a time when anti Semitism is horrendously increasing.

I do not think infant circumcision should be allowed in an ideal world but on balance I think the harm of banning it outweighs the gain.

My Jewish friend spent her whole pregnancy hoping she wasn’t having a boy so she wouldn’t have to have her baby circumcised. She got talked into it and on the day she ended up throwing up at the prospect and deciding not to go ahead with it. There were some grumbles from relatives but no major drama and she’s pleased she stuck to her instincts. If it was made illegal she and other new mums would have the law on their side.

This is a very important point. Can I ask if she's Orthodox or Ultra Orthodox (Haredi)? Or one of the more liberal ones like Masorti or Reform?

There could also be discussion on any unnecessary or cosmetic surgery for any adult or child.

Resources utilized could otherwise serve better purposes for humankind and the environment. Money and medical resources.

Opinion is perpetuated, that natural is not good enough and should be judged ugly, imperfect and annoying.
People then think it is neglectful and unkept to remain hairy, pregnant, flap eared, uncircumsized etc.

No doubt the practise of circumcision started out as a necessity in hot and sandy environments. Maybe men had diseases spreading etc.

If circumcision is to take place it is better when a person is younger and carried out by fully trained surgeons who use proper facilities.
History has shown that secretive operations are never a great idea.

Stop using religion or culture to mutilate children is the only message thst needs to be out there, if you do it criminal charges should follow it is not rocket science

Many Ultra Orthodox Haredi families have large numbers of children, and extended family might be unable to care for relatives' kids while the parents are in jail , for this reason — removing parents risks children ending up in care, which would be massively traumatic and completely disproportionate. It would also reinforce the belief that non-Jews are a danger to Jewish families, strong in some sections of Haredi.

Do you really think that jailing loving and otherwise law abiding Jews, Muslims, maybe some Africans parents etc would be practical? Legal system & child services are already stretched to breaking point.

It would just drive people from those communities to disengage with services and make it harder to monitor.

he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised;

I observe that the scripturally sanctioned purchase of babies seems to have been abandoned in line with contemporary sensibilities and laws.

No child is born a Muslim or a Jew or any other religion. It choice people make to have a faith in the existence of sky fairies.

How can a newborn infant consent to a religious practice when they may not choose to follow that faith in adulthood.

Just ban it end this nonsense.

Judaism is also an ethnicity & culture but I get your point re religion.
However, talk about 'sky fairies ' all you like : is it really rational to ban when it will probably lead to the outcomes I mentioned in that post, which you quoted yet ignored entirely?

I'm religious but I agree that this kind of irreversible procedure should not be done. Imo stuff like baptism or bar mitzvah is very different as it's not an irreversible medical thing. However, that still doesn't mean the good a ban might bring would outweigh the harm.

There is something very wrong in society when sexual abuse, it is should be considered sexual, of children is accepted because people are really really religious or from a specific part of the world or the colour of theit skin, if parents or another justification won't protect children, someone has too

Tiptoeing around in case it upsets someone's sensitives does not protect children, bad things happen when people who hide behind 'good' do nothing

I will give a longer reply, but for now, I disagree strongly with infant circumcision bit I do not think there are grounds for labelling it sexual abuse. Moreover, I thunk it's harmful to label things SA which are not. You can strongly criticise something without calling it CSA when it isn't.

How is mutilating a child's genitals not sexual abuse?

For context: FGM is a serious criminal offence because of the long-term harm it causes. But it's not automatically treated as sexual abuse in the courts— because sexual abuse in UK law requires sexual intent or purpose. Most parents who perform FGM do so for cultural, traditional, or “honour” reasons, not for sexual gratification.

The harms of male circumcision are much more contested although there is a lot of evidence it's harmful. However, it being harmful does not mean it's CSA.

Yes...slavery isn't a core part of the covenant the way ritual circumcision is though.

Ethnicity doesnt make people cut bits off children, ridiculous religious practices do. I wonder why so many on here try to defend or excuse this practice.

Genital mutilation must surely fall under the ‘child sex abuse’ umbrella. I can’t see how it couldn’t.

No religion has the right to take a child’s life.