To be furious at local church carol service

[YogaGrinch]

With our new "fundamentalist " vicar who included genesis 3 16

And other misogynistic patriarchal quotes and suggestions throughout the service -

Listening to the King's college Cambridge service tonight was a completely different service although there too there were some dated patriarchal views shared?

And basically using opportunity of a full church to preach hellfire and brimstone snd call us all hypocrites and sinners rather than preaching love kindness beauty

Never heard anything like it

Was absolutely 💔

Yeah, probably April. And?

Sigh. Literally everyone knows that.

Yes .... very strange that isn't it... why don't more Christians speak out???

Was the pagan festival of solstice too good a target for the invaders????

When that happens, it's likely down to some type of influence from the US. You might want to look into that. Right wing evangelicals are hell bent on spreading their views to the UK.

The more I read your posts (and username) the more I wonder what you were even doing at a church service anyway. You seem opposed to anything specific to Christianity.

In reference to your question, it's common knowledge that Jesus wasn't born in December. Its not a conspiracy the church is peddling. Yes the early church probably did usurp pagan winter festivals but if you love Jesus, and see him as your Lord and Saviour, you will be happy dedicate one day in the year to celebrate his birth. It doesn't matter when it was; there fact that he was born should be enough for any true believer. As it happens, I think it's a lovely way to brighten up the dark nights and reminds us that Jesus rescued us from darkness.

If you aren't a believer, then none of it will mean anything to you but you imply that you are a believer yet your words suggest otherwise. Jesus said 'by their fruits they shall be known' and I'm not picking up anything about celebrating Christ from you. Maybe I am wrong, believe, dont believe, it's your choice. Im just curious as can't work it out.

I understand why that picture of God feels disturbing — if that were the whole story, I wouldn’t worship that god either. Many Christians wrestle seriously with these texts.

But a few distinctions matter. The Bible doesn’t present God as a powerful human breaking moral rules; it presents him as the giver of life, whose judgement is exercised against entrenched violence and injustice — and even then, reluctantly, not gleefully (Ezekiel 18:23). Many passages often cited as God “commanding” abuse are actually descriptions of human evil, not divine endorsement.

Most importantly, Christianity doesn’t ask people to worship raw power. It claims God shows his true character in Jesus. And in Jesus, God does not inflict violence on others — he absorbs it himself. He eats with sinners, confronts hypocrisy, defends the vulnerable, and goes to the cross rather than retaliate (Philippians 2:6–8). That is the Christian definition of God.

The Eden story isn’t about fruit; it’s about humans seizing the right to define good and evil for themselves. The rest of the Bible traces the damage that causes — and God’s costly attempt to rescue rather than abandon us.

If God were a tyrant, he would be unworthy of worship. Christianity’s claim is the opposite: that God allows himself to be judged and killed by his own creatures in order to save them. If that isn’t true, your conclusion makes sense. But if it is, then the Bible is doing something far more morally serious than the caricature suggests.

Most Christians know Jesus wasn’t necessarily born on 25 December — the date isn’t a historical claim. Christmas is about what is being celebrated, not the exact day it happened.

The idea that this was simply a pagan “takeover” is often overstated. There’s good evidence that 25 December arose from early Christian theological reasoning about Jesus’ conception and death, not just from copying solstice festivals.

But even if there were cultural overlap, it wouldn’t undermine Christianity. From the beginning, Christians believed Christ redeems time and culture rather than being bound by calendars. Paul explicitly says, “One person esteems one day as better than another… each should be fully convinced in their own mind” (Romans 14:5).

So no deception is involved. Christmas isn’t a claim about a birth certificate — it’s a deliberate celebration of the incarnation, whenever it happened.

The Biblical views outlined in this thread have been, and remain to be, pretty mainstream, integral doctrine in all of the main Christian denominations. There are some differences in approach and interpretation but ultimately they all see (all of) Scripture as the foundational premise of Christianity. They all agree on the sin nature of man, and that Jesus was the son of God, lived a perfect life, died a death that we should have died, rose again and is seated at the right hand of the Father. This isn't a new MAGA thing. I'm in the middle of reading CS Lewis' "Mere Christianity" and there's nothing in there that I haven't heard in modern discourse. Same with RC Sproul and many of the old theologians. Its not new.

You misunderstand my post. That was in reference to the weird videos claiming to cure stuff. Christian 'therapies' are a very slippery slope towards cultish beliefs and the nutters I refer to are indeed hoping to spread their tentacles here. But I don't want to derail a thread which is not political.

We don’t go to our local CofE church as they had a video of a dog p-*ssing fire at the Christmas Eve service. The the following year they had us praying for Rahul moat the killer. In the CofE has lost its way for a while

Yeah the dog thing would put me off!

They advertised a alternative retelling of Christmas this year - seriously why bother I

Yuck!

'Speak out'? Seriously? I'm lost here. Its hardly some kind of scandal is it? No one ia going to shift a festival which is celebrated by billions around the world & is well over a thousand years old because someone on Mumsnet thinks some druids were hard done by.

Religion and especially Christianity, is inherently patriarchal and misogynistic. you can't pick and choose which part of the religion you follow.

I get why it can look that way—history and culture have sometimes distorted Christianity. But at its heart, the gospel values everyone equally. Jesus treated women with dignity, welcomed them as disciples, and challenged the norms of his day (Luke 8:1-3, John 4:7-27, Galatians 3:28).

The good news is that the Bible points to a God who loves all people deeply and calls everyone into a life of freedom, purpose, and worth. Often, people haven’t had the chance to fully read or experience the Bible for themselves, and their view of Christianity can be shaped more by human traditions or misunderstandings than by the message Jesus actually taught.

Just focus on Santa and mince pies. Remember the only reason the CofE exists at all is that Henry wanted to get his leg over with Boleyn.

tradition i would presume would be old testament ?

@YogaGrinch I’d love to better understand any specifics from the service? If you don’t mind me asking, could you clarify exactly what was said that felt misogynistic or overly focused on hellfire?

Sometimes what sounds harsh or shocking in one moment is meant in a different way within the broader Christian message — which centres on grace, forgiveness, and hope. Knowing the specifics can help for thoughtful responses.

Weirdly our DC school church carol concert was like that this year too. All readings really focused on original sin / sins of Eve / the precious virginity of Mary rather than anything else at all. I thought it was a bit odd (all boys school)

@IreneFromSkibbereen -God intervenes- take Christmas for instance. Not only did He create , He loves us so much He comes and lives among us, born as a new born babe.
Your questions come across as very honest, it may be that attending an Alpha course may help. Tho none of us have all the answers.
God bless you and Merry Christmas

I wonder where you picked up that idea? Do you have any first hand experience of Christianity?
Are you aware of the extensive charitable, educational and medical work done by Christian and other religious bodies

You said yourself it's been mistranslated so it's already been changed. Why not change it again?

So your point shows why we need religion. It's a different type of explanation.
Freewill is irrelevant to neuropsychology, but that doesn't mean it's objectively irrelevant.
Just because one can explain/map the steps that led to a person's choice, it doesn't mean they didn't make that choice.
Neuroscience helps us understand more about how/why choices are made.

What is there to speak out about? It’s common knowledge. Certainly amongst the Christian community.

More likely early Christian converts already had the time booked off from when they were pagans so, in the absence of any firm date, decided to celebrate Christ’s birth at the same time.