To think that antisemitism now needs to be tackled in the strongest possible way?

[LucyWestenra]

The Bondi thread in chat was eye opening.

Forty pages and a lot of it whataboutery, excuses and vile antisemitism.

It’s disgusting.

It needs to be called out. It needs to be rooted out.

I feel so sorry for the Jewish communities everywhere. How can they possibly feel safe?

GO AWAY

There's a lot of disingenuous people who say, 'if we criticise Israel we're called anti-semitic', and who take absolutely no trouble to consider why that might be. Robust criticism of the Israeli government could be entirely normal. As a non-anti-semite I might criticise the Israeli state in the same way I criticise the USA or India. And sometimes that is genuinely what people are doing.

But often, it's not just criticism. It's a nasty, visceral hostility that is very familiar to anyone who has experienced racism. It's calling for the complete eradication of the only Jewish state. It's the left's single-minded obsession with Israel. It's calling for intifada (attacks against Israeli civilians). The people who say there nothing problematic going on here are either complicit in anti-semitism or just blind.

I think the current Israeli government are dangerous war criminals. I think Hamas are dangerous war criminals. This does not make me anti semitic nor anti Muslim.

Yes!

It’s usually the same people who claim ‘from the river to the sea’ doesn’t mean anything sinister.

I don't think you actually read/engaged with my point.

Yes I did.

Think it flew right over your head.

Thank you for asking.
My suggestion is that you call out antisemitism when you see it in others. Racists give themselves away because they’d believe many others agree with them. If they think their hatred is unacceptable then they’ll shut up and the cycle will decline.

No it really didn’t

It certainly wasn’t saying that commenting that Netanyahu and co are war criminals is antisemitic so no idea why you felt to say that it isn’t.

Exactly what I mean

Thank you. I'm not Jewish myself, my grandmother visited this school because she was teaching RS then. I'm also a strong ally of the Jewish people. We must do everything we can to ensure no one has to fear for their life because of being Jewish- it's disgusting this kind of violent prejudice is spreading in the 21st century.

That's standard for any event at a synagogue. My non Jewish friends were shocked to have to walk past security at the synagogue during our wedding.

This is the case for many groups, but especially for Jewish people : meaning, two groups moving in different worlds. Many Jews have evidently been living in a world of constant security threats long before the recent terrible intensification of anti Semitism, and for far too long most non Jews have been at best, unaware, at worst, apathetic.

This is so beyond ignorant. You sound like some old racist saying 'before the Civil War blacks and whites got on fine.'

It was great if you didn't mind having no rights under the law, the ability for your family to be robbed and murdered with impunity, run out of your home, not allowed to serve as a legal witness, not able to participate in society. Jewish people were servant class and routinely abused.

My family are Middle Eastern Jewish people. After the formation of Israel, all the Middle Eastern Jews that weren't killed either fled or were exiled there. Finally a place where they could live and exist free from harm - from their own government, obviously, they still had to defend themselves against constant terror attacks from the surrounding states, just like the ones you cheer for.

They are indeed two different things. The issue is when Jews raise antisemitism (ie the first thing) we are dismissed and shouted down with the by now trite phrase that criticism of Israel is not antisemitism (ie the second thing). Ie the implication is either we’re inflating levels of antisemitism when really it’s just legitimate criticism of Israel / or we’re using antisemitism claims to deflect from blame on Israel.

I have lost track of how many times over the last couple of years I’ve openly said that fair and proportionate criticism of Israel is not antisemitism, and it fell on deaf ears.

also it’s not just criticism of Israel really is it - another incident the other day when a Jewish couple in America opened their gift wrapped chanuka pyjamas from Bloomingdale’s and there was free Palestine scrawled on the Bloomingdale’s card tucked inside the package. I mean is that fair criticism of Israel? Does that count as antisemitism?https://x.com/stopantisemites/status/2000688445929181461?s=46

I've noticed that the people who prattle piously about how criticism of Israel isn't antisemitism never engage with discussions of actual antisemitism. The most they will ever say is "antisemitism is bad" followed by a "but Israel".

I don’t believe a single word you said.

I started this thread in 2021 back when i still lived in the UK.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4246745-Im-a-scared-British-Jew
it was after a horrific incident where men were driving through the Jewish areas of London in cars draped in Palestinian flags with megaphones, screaming fuck the Jews, kill the Jews, rape their daughters. (Jews, not Israelis. Not that that would be ok either, but it was very very clear that they were screaming abuse against Jews not Israelis). This was caught on video*. There were other pro Palestinian protests going on at the same time, and in Manchester where I lived protestors also drove by waving Palestinian flags and screaming antisemitic abuse, and some came into the Jewish shops intimidating people, and cars were smashed up in our area. A rabbi (I think in London) was beaten up and hospitalised.

I was very very scared when I posted and felt very alone. Within precisely 15 minutes of posting, a poster had justified the antisemitism because of Israel and Palestine, blamed the “Jewish government” and a number of others did the same. there were messages of support and care from many wonderful non Jewish people on the thread, but there were also comments like this “If a Jew believes that their government is right to excute genocide (you cannot call it war because one side doesn’t even have an army) then they shouldn’t be totally surprised - not saying that it’s right at all btw - at the feelings of some of the public right now.”
Bear in mind this was in 2021.
And I was British, born in Britain, and both my parents were born in Britain too.

Forgive me for being a little cynical at this point of the motives of people saying criticism of Israel/its government is not antisemitism, when posting in the context of a horrifically tragic terrorist attack. Israel has been used as a stick to beat Jews and justify antisemitism since long before October 7th, and this valid criticism idea doesn’t hold water when it’s being used as a tool to silence Jews.

*sickeningly, the charges were dropped by the CPS, despite witnesses and video footage. The lawyer for one of the men claimed he was not antisemitic and had nothing against Jewish people 🙄

Neither do I.

@EllaDisenchanted I remember your thread and everything you say is true. That particular incident in London was horrific and noone was held to account. The Mayor and Met Police Commissioner have a lot to answer for.

Well you can believe what you want. I was there and I presume you weren't.

Not saying there never was and couldn't possibly be anything that attacked Jews there, just my friends and I never saw it, while people who have never been to them often seem to claim they were filled with rampant antisemitism - which was not my experience. Again, as a person was actually present at several such events.

I’ve been present at many events too - couldn’t have avoided them, they were weekly right outside of my work.

do you disagree that ‘globalise the intifada’ and ‘from the river to the sea’ are antisemitic? Because maybe that’s where we are at cross purposes. I think there are other more subtle issues and the masked gangs of Hamas supporters roaming the streets yelling anything is already frightening and polarising.

But those specific chants are inherently antisemitic to me so every single march is hateful as far as I’m concerned. If you are happy for a group of masked thugs to call for worldwide racist violence with your support then we are inherently different. I am very aware that I don’t speak for ‘all’ Jewish people so maybe that’s where we are disagreeing.

@PurpleThistle7 your experience is the same as mine. I am always sad to read/see other Jews report about being on the pro Palestinian marches.Thousands of people attend and, if you stand in one place only, as I have done there is no doubt that many marchers are fuelling hatred of Jews, not just Israelis (which is bad enough).

I'm always curious to know what people think 'globalise the Intifada' actually means. To me, it means Bondi Beach and 20 shots at a family home in California because it had Chanukah decorations outside. To me globalise the Intifada means Mumbai November 2008. It means the rape of a 12 year old girl in Paris and firebombs at a synagogue in Sweden. It means the murder of Finn Nørgaard and Dan Uzan in Copenhagen.

What does it mean to those chanting it? And how do they rationalise that it doesn't mean the things mentioned above? The Intifada has already been globalised so may as well stop calling for it.