To think this should be sick leave not annual leave?

[Toddlerteaplease]

I am having a new treatment for a chronic neurological condition. It’s two IV infusions 15 days apart, then 6 monthly after that. The first infusion fell on my days off. I told my manager that I’d need the day of the second infusion off. But apparently I either have to swap a shift or take it as annual leave. I can’t have it as sick leave as I’m not technically sick. (She is fully aware of the diagnosis!) I work in the NHS. Is this correct? I feel slightly aggrieved at having to use annual leave for something I have no choice over! And my sickness record is very good!

https://www.acas.org.uk/time-off-for-medical-appointments

https://www.acas.org.uk/supporting-disabled-people/disability-related-absence

You can also phone the free Acas helpline if you want.

There is no legal right to paid time off for medical appointments, disability or not.

I am nhs. I would first arrange shifts or days off to accommodate the appointment. Then no sick leave or annual leave is needed.

ig using sick leave and on going, it would fall under sickness management, especially if you ended up being off sick with colds etc. as a manager I probably won’t take treatment days into consideration if having to manage sickness.

see if you can swap shifts. Others may have long term conditions that require check ups and can’t take this as sickness days. I do and just swap shifts to cover it.

What time of day is the appointment?

In my department, also NHS, this definitely wouldn’t be annual leave, speak to HR, there are ways of recording special leave and your condition may come under a protected characteristic.

If you don’t have a flexible employer, it’s normal to take medical appointments in your own time.

My employer doesn’t mind if I go to appointments during work hours then make up the time, but I’m in a senior enough position where that trust is built in. I don’t have to ask for permission per se but just manage my own calendar. I normally try to align appointments with lunch or start/finish times so I still do a whole day around that. However my job is digital & can be carried out remotely, so I don’t need to be on site or do anything operational or customer facing.

I think what you’re asking for is some sort of special paid leave for medical appointments.

I don’t think it’s sick leave either, but you’re welcome to take it as sick leave if you follow sickness absence protocol on the day?

@Popadomorbreadyes, MS. Occupational health referral was done a while ago. But not overly helpful. I’ve had it for years. The last treatment I had was ten years ago and that was sick leave then, as I was in hospital for 5 days. My managers have always been very supportive of me. So it’s not a complaint at them. She said she wanted to just give it me off but had been told she couldn’t. I’ll see if I can find who to speak to in HR. I’ve not mentioned that I’ll almost certainly need the next day off yet, as the previous drugs I’ve had have wiped me out and this one gave me a headache. The next dose is bigger than the first, so expecting worse side effects.

I have IVIG for 2 days every 6 weeks. I used to take annual leave but now I have treatment on non consecutive days to alleviate side effects and can occasionally get a bed on a Saturday.

I think it’d be unreasonable for me to ask for 16 extra days off a year sadly.

What time is your appointment? At my work, planned medical treatment would be sick leave, although GP appointments wouldn’t.

Can you say that your appointment is at 9am, so you will be in at 10 am unless you are too ill from the side effects. In which case you will take the rest of the day off as sick. Which is true if you are not well enough to work.

Weirdly, the following day, if you're too unwell to work, would count as sick leave.

Could you just swap a shift on this occasion but take advice from your union rep for any future treatment

Nope. Any sickness absence related to disability comes out of sickness allowance but should not ever be used for absence management processes like saying someone’s had too much time off.

as op has stated they have MS I would put a bet on she’s probably having an immunosuppressant tx such as lemtrada so there also needs to be additional adjustments to ensure she’s not compromised at work - particularly in a pt facing role and any illness caught at work due to suppressed immune system related to disability treatments should not be considered as part of absence management processes eg saying she’s had too much time off

I am more than happy to arrange future treatments and my appointments on days off. That’s what I’ve always done. It’s just those one can’t be changed due to the drug protocol.

I’ve already had Lemtrada and tysabri. This one is a very new one called Ubliximitab. This o r has had the worst side effects so far and only had a small dose. Not looking forward to the next one!

I work for the NHS have a twice yearly planned procedure always goes down as sick leave no one quibbles it.
As well as speaking to HR go to OH for support.

I'm nhs too. Recent diagnosis of a chronic condition that needs occasional specialist service input. I was going to take annual leave for an appointment next week but my manger advised I should register my condition and can then take it as disability leave, which I've done and it's been approved.
I think it's manger discretion but worth exploring.

We'd get disability leave for this (a type of special leave). So not sick or annual leave. CS.

If you've got time to give notice ideally you're meant to try and swap the shift but not always possible so you tell them. Mine had a massive go at me as I had a physio appointment during work time (couldn't swap shift due to childcare), i was pregnant and trying to do whatever to stay in work longer as I had pelvic pain- safe to say they were pretty mad. Was bad enough when I had to go for a rescan (first app in the morning), nobody handed it over so the day prior I mentioned it again nobody had any idea 😅

Of course you can use disability related sickness in absence management, an unlimited amount of time off is not a reasonable adjustment.

OP I think you should take the actual treatment day as annual leave, then any resulting days off due to being unwell from the treatment should be taken as sickness. Do you have any adjusted triggers or similar for absence management?

This would be paid special leave for us, moving to unpaid or the option to take annual leave after a generous paid allowance.

I don't think your employer are acting unlawfully but as you're NHS I'd expect an amount of paid leave for a required medical treatment.

Why the hell should she have to use annual leave for treatment for a long term disability?? She absolutely does not.

And we aren’t talking about long term sickness we are talking about days here and there

of course an employer can dismiss for long term absence but for disability they have to jump through hoops to ensure it’s fair and reasonable to dismiss

If you're speaking to HR, talk to them about whether they have adjusted your absence triggers for disability sickness absence so you know where you stand if you're going to need the day after treatment off sick.

As a pp has said, disregarding all disability absence wouldn't be reasonable, but they should be making some adjustment to the triggers.

In my nhs job I get paid leave (not annual leave and not sick leave) for medical appointments. I would have thought this would be the same? It shouldn’t be annual leave.

Oh this infuriates me! MS is a disability and you should be protected under the Equality Act. Some companies will be good but not all. Ideally don't take holiday to go to appointments, or switch shifts! You already deal with the burden of an illness and you need that holiday for rest. Pregnant employees are allowed to go to their appointments and not take it as holiday!

She said she wanted to just give it me off but had been told she couldn’t.

Told by who?

Always best to have your own conversation with HR when such things arrives. Saves all the drama and managers who don’t know the correct procedures. Just contact HR and you’ll know where you stand very quickly without guess work from mumsnetters.

Disabled employees have fewer legal rights than pregnant employees around appointments.

Pregnant employees have the right to paid time off for appointments, disabled employees don't.